Thief multiclass?

[BloodyBlades]

So I am currently a level 4 Thief, I seen that I have level in other classes too? Is there one I should go for? Or stay a pure thief? I tried to do some research about it, but I could not find anything to assist me with it.

[WeenerTuck813]

Like we can do the math if you really want, but it’s been balanced for decades in table top you’re going to end up on the wrong side of this one

[Scrubwave]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von WeenerTuck813:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Scrubwave:

Buddy, fighters at level 11 have 3 attacks. They don't need action surge to outperform rogues in combat.

6d6 sneak attack damage at level 11 keeps them competitive.

No, it doesn't. It's nice but they'll still lag behind. Not to mention finesse weapons don't hit nearly as hard as two handers.
Besides, in bg3 max sneak attack damage is 5d6, per wiki.
https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Sneak_Attack_(Ranged)
They couldn't even be bothered to give the last pity d6.
"Like we can do the math if you really want, but it’s been balanced for decades in table top you’re going to end up on the wrong side of this one"
And if I were to say that the senile wizards have no idea what they're doing that'd be bad, right?

[Aldaris]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Scrubwave:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Aldaris:

Rogues don't get a 2nd attack in tabletop either.

The sneak attack thing is annoying though.

Weird, I could've sworn I said "5e" and not "bg3".
Hmmmmmmmmm
"Sneak attack keeps them close in dps with pure melee"
Lol, no it doesn't.
Do your math on 12 level PURE rogue vs level 12 pure fighter.
Then weep as you test hasted rogue vs hasted fighter.

Apologies for reading it wrong, but in my defence, we're talking about BG3 here, not complaining about 5E.

I've gone fighter 5 in tabletop for reason, and that's for more chances to get sneak damage.

What builds using what abilities? A fighter swinging a long sword will on average do 13.5 from 3 attacks. A single rogue attack with sneak will do 25.5, both at 12 all things being equal and all hits. If you start including misses, the fighter will pull ahead given they'll be hitting more often.

Sure, if you want to start min/maxing fighter absolutely will pull ahead, although anything at all that lets a rogue do an attack outside of its turn will let them keep up. Shame D&D isn't about min/maxing though. You take rogues for other things than damage, where as fighters have little to no utility outside of combat.

[guard65]

Not sure when D&D changed from role playing and skills used in the adventure to combat and dps. It was always less than 25% of most our campaigns in pre-2k. My guess is video games but I am always wrong...

[Math1337]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Scrubwave:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von WeenerTuck813:

6d6 sneak attack damage at level 11 keeps them competitive.

No, it doesn't. It's nice but they'll still lag behind. Not to mention finesse weapons don't hit nearly as hard as two handers.
Besides, in bg3 max sneak attack damage is 5d6, per wiki.
https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Sneak_Attack_(Ranged)
They couldn't even be bothered to give the last pity d6.
"Like we can do the math if you really want, but it’s been balanced for decades in table top you’re going to end up on the wrong side of this one"
And if I were to say that the senile wizards have no idea what they're doing that'd be bad, right?

Dude, this isn't fighter dps topic. Fighter is plain and strong, always on top of most tier lists, but he is best mostly in fighting, while rogue has stealthy gameplay. Yeah you can pickpocket and disarm traps with anyone, but why? Sneak attack is unique thief feature: you don't need 2+ attacks if enemie dies in one hit.
It is nonsence to compare 2 differenent classes just in dps-check. You are free to play whoever you like, with a little ingenuity any class can work without multiclassing.

[VoiD]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von WeenerTuck813:

Like we can do the math if you really want, but it’s been balanced for decades in table top you’re going to end up on the wrong side of this one

I'm not so sure about that.

I mean, sure, they lose to fighters, by far, they probably deal less than 1/3 of their damage, and that's cool and all.

But it seems like they also lose to sorcs, wizzards, monks, clerics, druids, barbarians, rangers, etc...

And speaking of rangers, I guess a poor one (using dual) might be close, but if they go with the sharpshooter route, there's no comparisson again.

I mean, I like Rogue, I think their 2 classes pair really well Ranger (gloomstalker), and thief can be used as a sub for many other classes like Monk, but as a pure class, they really are quite terrible.

Hell, even the things they can do better than most, like disarming and unlocking, can still be done fairly reliably by any other class with high dex in 5e, specially if they have access to certain magic buffs (druid has a bunch).

I really like sneaky and stealthy characters doing a bunch of crit backstabbing damage, but in this game it doesn't seem like it's possible, at least, not as a pure rogue, a shadow monk or gloomstalker hybrid can work well.

Edit: As for fighters, and pretty much any other class, it's not JUST about having more attacks, I mean, sure, that already kills any competition from rogues, specially if you consider all them items that add flat damage, and the more you attack, the more you can reapply all of them, but even if you ignore that you get this:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von No_Title:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Seven of Nine:

You underestimate how crit scales :) with savage attacks and say a very luck roll of 4 crits in a row:
You get 4 attacks with a short sword each doing a potential 3d6 damage. Thats a total of 12d6 just from weapon attacks only.
Your sneak attack will do 7d6.
Thats already a respectable 19d6.
Unsure if Rapiers can apply sneak attack.
+20 from Dex bonus.
You can also hasten your rogue/fighter hybrid for an extra 4d6 damage.
Add stuff like caustic ring - 4 attacks + sneak attack damage total of +10 damage, 14 if hasted.
19d6+14+20.
All while maintaining high AC as well.
Obviously this an only crit damage.
12d6+20+10(+10+4) a turn, bracketed is on crit modifier.

I'm going to guess you're using 6/6 fighter/thief

2 feats from fighter
1 feat from thief

Your feats are likely going to be ASI, Savage attacker, and maybe resilient (dex) to push yourself to 20 in your main stat.
You have 2 main hand attacks, and 2 offhand attacks.
Your knife of undermountain king does 1d6 +2.
Your bloodthirst dagger does 1d4 +2
Your sneak attack due to 6 rogue does 3d6

You get bonus crit from champion (19), bloodthirst (18), undermountain king (17), sarevok helm (16), giving you roughly 25% crit. You can also use malice to lower that crit even further to 15, but I'll let you decide whatever elixir you like.

Damage from your main hands = (3-8)x2 = 6-16 (undermountain king)
Damage from your off hands = (3-6)x2 = 6-12 (bloodthirst)

12-28 damage, plus 1 sneak attack (3-18 damage) = 15-46 damage
Add in 4x5 (4 attacks x dexterity bonus of 5 at 20) and you get an additional 20 damage.
35-66 damage.

We'll even add in your caustic ring for an additional 8 damage. 43-74.

Now, comparing a 2h daddy.

4 feats from fighter

Resilient/ASI(dex), Savage attacker, Martial Adept, GWM. (martial adept being the optional one, although I've found riposte to be great for action economy).
Also benefit from +1 armor class due to extra fighting style level 10 champion provides and a great interaction with great weapon fighting style functioning similar to savage attacker.
Also benefit from indomitable as a defensive measure.

I gain bonus crit from champion (19), sarevok helm (18) giving me roughly 15% crit, meaning that you /only/ crit 10% more than me. I will not be using the crit elixir, as I'm using Cloud Giant strength to give me 27 str.

I use Balduran's Giant slayer.
Damage from Balduran = (5-15)x3 = 15 - 45 (the minimum will be much higher due to the interaction with great weapon fighting rerolling die on 1s and 2s and savage attacker taking the greatest of those numbers).

Now, add in 3x16 (8 modifier at 27 strength doubled by Giantslayer's passive) = 48 damage
and we get
63 - 93 damage

Add in a caustic ring and its 71 - 101 damage. But wait, there's more. I forgot the damage from GWM. +30.

101-131. AND I have bonus actions which can be used for ANOTHER attack, shoving, throwing a potion, or whatever. Maybe a pommel strike. Or maybe I used the ilithid power to make bonus actions turn into regular actions giving me even more attacks.

I'm not going to bother with haste calculations, because it yields more in favor of the 2h in every single case.

If you want to dual wield because it looks cool, go ahead. Dual wield crossbows is pretty good due to sharpshooter applying to both weapons. But dual wield melee kinda sucks ♥♥♥♥. BG3 is easy enough on tactician that you can do whatever and still win.

From: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1086940/discussions/0/6504942507071508661/

[DragonMaster]

Personally I started out as a Ranger gloom stalker and at 6th switched the rogue and I'm going to take assassin for 5 levels and then I thin I'll take 2 in fighter