Does DnD 5e Arcane Casting suck vs 3e? (Not a complaint re BG3, more a complaint re DnD 5e)

[Telmorial]

Don't get me wrong, I think I will love BG3 (I played BG1 & 2 and all the expansions) but I was interested in your feedback regarding DnD 5e in general. I generally find it less fun and more dumb down than 3e (let's not talk about 4e!)

My 3 main pet peeves are;
1. The concentration system. I can see what they were trying to accomplish but they (the DnD guys, not BG3 devs) went waaaay OTT.
In my opinion, they should have limited concentration to per spell level or spell range of spell levels (E.G. can can 1 spell from lvl 1 to 4 and 1 spell from level 5 to 8 etc running at the same time).

2. Maybe I'm missing something but it seems the spells in general don't get more powerful as you level. E.G. Cone of Cone is 8D8. It doesn't matter if you're level 9 or level 20, it always does 8D8.

3. This one I'm unsure about but maybe INT now doesn't give a Wizard more spells?
In 3e, the more INT, the more spells I could cast per rest period.

All 3 points essentially removes a lot of the feeling of character progression, in terms of my arcane magic user character.

Again, I'm not moaning about this particular game and yes, it's probably the wrong forum to post this but I don't post in the DnD forums, so I was interested in other players point of view on this subject.

EDIT: I updated the post title, as I realised, my only real complaint against DnD 5e is the arcane/Wizard casting system and really most of that is the Concentration system.

[Jon]

They're both equally bad, trying to emulate tabletop always ends up poorly in one way or another.

[Ghost]

It's certainly more streamlined, whether that sucks or not is fairly subjective.

1. Don't think concentration has really changed all that much as far as spells are concerned.

2. They do. For example, Cone of Cold increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 5th. If you cast as a 6th level spell, it's 9d8, 7 = 10d8 etc.

3. Int doesn't affect your amount of spells anymore, no. It does affect Spell DC though.
You get more spells the higher level wizard you are.

[Telmorial]

So you think from the non computer game / tabletop, 5e is as good / better than 3e? (genuine question, I never have the chance to do tabletop).

It just seems those 3 points for casters, really restrict the feeling of character progression and tactical options in combat.

My personal hope is in 6e (or 5.5e?), they'll fine tune these things.

EDIT: I forgot to quote, this was a reply to Jon.

[Farsha]

1. Concentration was designed to limit prebuffing and stacking buffs, it's there to limit how many buffs you can apply. DnD 5e goal was to simplify the rules, for it to be accessible to wider audiences. I don't like it either, specially since Bless and Haste you want always. So 2 characters concentration is always wasted on that and there is little room to have a some more fun concentration spells. We can only hope there will be items that allow to concentrate on 2 spells. They do exist in DnD campaigns.

2. Spells do get stronger and get other beneficial effects by you selecting to "upcasting them". Each lvl of upcast generally adds 1 mored dmg die to the spell or add Extra target to a spell buff (Bless).

3. This will actually be added in the updated version of DnD 5e that is coming next year. Not sure if it is win. They will lower his normal prepared spell slots. So on low lvls you will have less spells and on high lvl you will get about the same as now.

We don't know how many One DnD mechanics and changes will be in BG3. Some are in actually in some form like the special weapon attacks you can do.

[Telmorial]

Originally posted by Ghost:

It's certainly more streamlined, whether that sucks or not is fairly subjective.

1. Don't think concentration has really changed all that much as far as spells are concerned.

2. They do. For example, Cone of Cold increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 5th. If you cast as a 6th level spell, it's 9d8, 7 = 10d8 etc.

3. Int doesn't affect your amount of spells anymore, no. It does affect Spell DC though.
You get more spells the higher level wizard you are.

Thanks for the info.

Re point 1, I mean the system where you can only cast 1 spell that has a duration at the same time. E.G. I can't keep levitate and insect plague running at the same time (not sure if they're in BG3, as I'm waiting for it to be released before I play it).
Is that not the case in DnD5e / BG3?
My only experience of DnD 5e is playing Solasta.

Re point 2, ok, that good to know, it must be just Solasta's implementation or maybe my memory is failing me re that game.

EDIT: Spelling errors/

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Farsha:

3. This will actually be added in the updated version of DnD 5e that is coming next year. Not sure if it is win. They will lower his normal prepared spell slots. So on low lvls you will have less spells and on high lvl you will get about the same as now.

Not sure I'd call that one a win. It's sort of like 'better wizard' vs 'smarter person'
It makes sense to me that the better or more experience wizard would have more/better spells, whereas the more intelligent one was, the better they could manipulate their spells.

[Rusted Metal]

they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

[brendan_in_china]

Temple of Elemental Evil used 3E faithfully and, once the many bugs were fixed, it was a good rendition of 3E TT combat experience.

(Exploration and social encounters sucked badly, although modders made it passable.)

Without concentration you need programmable Macros to cast buffs after rest. The difference in power between a buffed and non-buffed party are orders of magnitude. Dispel magic therefore can devastate a high level party. When I played 3E TT, I needed Excel open to track buffs once the party was level 9+.

Wizards getting more spell slots _and_ higher DCs for higher Int layered benefit upon benefit. They could go nova several times a day.

As a DM, I could manage the game with my friends, but it became more work than fun. And at that point, why am I doing it?

[Farsha]

Originally posted by Ghost:

Not sure I'd call that one a win. It's sort of like 'better wizard' vs 'smarter person'
It makes sense to me that the better or more experience wizard would have more/better spells, whereas the more intelligent one was, the better they could manipulate their spells.

Yea but it's just a minor tweak.
They kinda butchered Warlock completely, removing spell recovery on short rests and making him a Half Caster.

[Telmorial]

Originally posted by Farsha:

1. Concentration was designed to limit prebuffing and stacking buffs, it's there to limit how many buffs you can apply. DnD 5e goal was to simplify the rules, for it to be accessible to wider audiences. I don't like it either, specially since Bless and Haste you want always. So 2 characters concentration is always wasted on that and there is little room to have a some more fun concentration spells. We can only hope there will be items that allow to concentrate on 2 spells. They do exist in DnD campaigns.

Yeah I agree, the concentration system is probably my main thing that I hate about DnD5e. I really think if they implemented a group of levels (E.G. can maintain 1 spell from lvl 1 to 4, 1 spell from lvl 5 to 8 etc at the same time), that would allow for a much wider range of tactical options but still stop the crazy pre buffing from 3e.

[Jon]

Originally posted by Telmorial:

So you think from the non computer game / tabletop, 5e is as good / better than 3e? (genuine question, I never have the chance to do tabletop).

It just seems those 3 points for casters, really restrict the feeling of character progression and tactical options in combat.

My personal hope is in 6e (or 5.5e?), they'll fine tune these things.

EDIT: I forgot to quote, this was a reply to Jon.

I personally don't have a preference, maybe slightly in favour of 5e when it comes to tabletop.

Ghost answered your points pretty well. When it comes to videogame iteration both versions have their good and bad.

[Telmorial]

Originally posted by brendan_in_china:

Temple of Elemental Evil used 3E faithfully and, once the many bugs were fixed, it was a good rendition of 3E TT combat experience.

(Exploration and social encounters sucked badly, although modders made it passable.)

Without concentration you need programmable Macros to cast buffs after rest. The difference in power between a buffed and non-buffed party are orders of magnitude. Dispel magic therefore can devastate a high level party. When I played 3E TT, I needed Excel open to track buffs once the party was level 9+.

Wizards getting more spell slots _and_ higher DCs for higher Int layered benefit upon benefit. They could go nova several times a day.

As a DM, I could manage the game with my friends, but it became more work than fun. And at that point, why am I doing it?

Funny enough, Temple of Elemental Evil is just about the only DnD game I haven't played. I know it's a classic, for some reason, I just didn't see that game when it came out.
I do agree with you re the crazy amount of pre buffing and general amount of work with 3e.
I think some middle ground would work. Anyway, one can hope! :)

[Popsicles]

Na, you have this backwards, 3e sucks compared to 5e. You just have your nostalgia glasses on (which is the quote I always get when I talk about how great BG1+2 were).

[WeenerTuck813]

I favor 5e drastically.
I hated Pathfinder in comparison

D&D is supposed to, at it essence, be about role playing, having fun with friends.

5e allows one to focus on being present and the game in front of them, rather than doing all sorts of math and min maxing

I like Pathfinder Wrath of the righteous, but the prebuffing just like ruins the immersion. The insane multiclassing ruins it.

Like it’s so focused on all this complicated crap you don’t really play the game. It’s more like, “get together with friends and have a character building competition”

Like, how do you roleplay a character that has like 3 multi class dips?

5e is wonderful, because it’s not that.
I’m a fighter. I level as a fighter. I might have 1 buff to worry about. I focus on RP and the game with my friends.

[Popsicles]

Originally posted by WeenerTuck813:

I favor 5e drastically.
I hated Pathfinder in comparison

D&D is supposed to, at it essence, be about role playing, having fun with friends.

5e allows one to focus on being present and the game in front of them, rather than doing all sorts of math and min maxing

I like Pathfinder Wrath of the righteous, but the prebuffing just like ruins the immersion. The insane multiclassing ruins it.

Like it’s so focused on all this complicated crap you don’t really play the game. It’s more like, “get together with friends and have a character building competition”

5e is wonderful, because it’s not that.
I’m a fighter. I level as a fighter. I might have 1 buff to worry about. I focus on RP and the game with my friends.

My serious D&D group is way more into collaborative story telling, world building, character background and role playing. 5e is perfect for all this. We do not have any number cruncher or build freaks that look for every exploit.

We have gone 7 sessions in our new game and only have had two combat scenarios so far. 3.5 hour sessions where it doesn't matter if you dex is maxed out or whether you created the most OP build.