warlocks are the best support class for rogues

[>//The_FALCON]

step 1: summon imp
step 2: make imp invisible
step 3: can't sneak attack an enemy? just park the imp next to the enemy. doesn't matter how far it is, the imp is not in combat and thus not constrained to turn based time.

[Crimsomrider]

I prefer my Ranger more since I take the Familiar at the start, which I always summon as a Raven. So not only can it fly everywhere, but also applies Blind on enemies which increases chances to hit the target for everyone.

A very effective and cheap crowd control that everyone benefits from and enemies pretty much always ignore it :D

[wtiger27]

Warlocks are great support for any group/class. Wyll is always a must have companion in my groups.

[Metallicus]

I find Wyll and Gale to be the most useless of the companions. Shadowheart has amazing utility as a cleric and with her trickery domain. La’zel and Astarion can deal out so much damage. I find them indispensable.

I definitely like Wyll’s Imp, but I find him kind of meh. His stats suck and he doesn’t hit consistently enough for my taste.

[Aldain]

I mean...you can do the same thing with a Fighter standing shoulder to shoulder with the rogue focused on the same enemy without circumventing the mechanics of the game.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

OP is right, but it works with any familiar, not just imps (although an invisible imp is especially tasty).

Thief/Warlock/Sorcerer solo masterclass!

[Farsha]

Originally posted by Metallicus:

I find Wyll and Gale to be the most useless of the companions. Shadowheart has amazing utility as a cleric and with her trickery domain. La’zel and Astarion can deal out so much damage. I find them indispensable.

I definitely like Wyll’s Imp, but I find him kind of meh. His stats suck and he doesn’t hit consistently enough for my taste.

Gale has Haste, second best spell in DnD 5e. (after Bless)
Wyll is decent blaster (CHA16) but other than imp and dps, he does not offer much synergy or support, warlocks just don't.

Gale and Shadowheart are the best companions cause of Haste and Bless.
Only thing better than Wizard is Sorcerer that can twin spell Haste.

Having Great Weapon master, action surge, Bless, Haste and Sleep (or other spell that guarantees crit) means 6 attacks, each for 30-50+dmg, with just 1 lvl 5 L'eazel.
That is potential for 300+ dmg in one burst. Not sure anything can beat that on lvl 5.

[sevensided]

Originally posted by Metallicus:

I definitely like Wyll’s Imp, but I find him kind of meh. His stats suck and he doesn’t hit consistently enough for my taste.

This is a touch hyperbolic. His stats are the best you can get using standard array for a warlock.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

One of the best things about multiclassing Warlock with Rogue is that you get some really nifty Invocations that support the stealth lifestyle, such as Devil's Sight, One With Shadows, etc.

The Imp familiar is icing on the cake.

[sevensided]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

One of the best things about multiclassing Warlock with Rogue is that you get some really nifty Invocations that support the stealth lifestyle, such as Devil's Sight, One With Shadows, etc.

The Imp familiar is icing on the cake.

Sure, but you're weakening your sneak attack damage for darkvision (which you can get from racials) and the ability to turn invisible in the shadows, if you don't move or do anything, which you can...already effectively do with a hide action.

Really, an arcane trickster is going to give you all that, familiar included (though not an imp), without ruining your sneak attack damage. If you really want to sneak attack without the enemy seeing you, like with the devil's sight/darkness combo, then use greater invisibility. Then you wont screw over your party either.

Terrible combo, 3/10.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by sevensided:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

One of the best things about multiclassing Warlock with Rogue is that you get some really nifty Invocations that support the stealth lifestyle, such as Devil's Sight, One With Shadows, etc.

The Imp familiar is icing on the cake.

Sure, but you're weakening your sneak attack damage for darkvision (which you can get from racials) and the ability to turn invisible in the shadows, if you don't move or do anything, which you can...already effectively do with a hide action.

Really, an arcane trickster is going to give you all that, familiar included (though not an imp), without ruining your sneak attack damage. If you really want to sneak attack without the enemy seeing you, like with the devil's sight/darkness combo, then use greater invisibility. Then you wont screw over your party either.

Terrible combo, 3/10.

• Darkvision doesn't allow you to see through magical darkness.
• Hide and invisibility are not the same thing, and neither are they mutually exclusive, plus One With Shadows lets you do it as often as you like without spending a resource.

[WeenerTuck813]

Originally posted by sevensided:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

One of the best things about multiclassing Warlock with Rogue is that you get some really nifty Invocations that support the stealth lifestyle, such as Devil's Sight, One With Shadows, etc.

The Imp familiar is icing on the cake.

Sure, but you're weakening your sneak attack damage for darkvision (which you can get from racials) and the ability to turn invisible in the shadows, if you don't move or do anything, which you can...already effectively do with a hide action.

Really, an arcane trickster is going to give you all that, familiar included (though not an imp), without ruining your sneak attack damage. If you really want to sneak attack without the enemy seeing you, like with the devil's sight/darkness combo, then use greater invisibility. Then you wont screw over your party either.

Terrible combo, 3/10.

Agree.

Tbh the only multi classes that are worth it to me have been Warlock/Paladin/Sorcerer any combo of those - MAYBE with bard in there occasionally.

This is 5e not pathfinder. Druid/Barbarians and Rogue/Warlocks make awful multi classes

[sevensided]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

• Darkvision doesn't allow you to see through magical darkness.

True, but the darkness/devil sight combo is not worth the loss of sneak attack damage when the same effect can be mechanically achieved using invisibility for far less of an opportunity cost.

• Hide and invisibility are not the same thing, and neither are they mutually exclusive, plus One With Shadows lets you do it as often as you like without spending a resource.

Let me explain to you how bad of an invocation One With Shadows is. You can't do anything while using it. Nothing! Not even use stealth.
Its limitations are such that in order to use it in combat to give an enemy the slip, you effectively have to use your whole turn: First you have to take the hide action (a bonus action for rogues), THEN you use one with shadows (which uses your action). If you simply just try to use one with shadows, all you have done is make it so attacks against you are at disadvantage. Invisibility does not prevent enemies from knowing where you are or targeting you with attacks; in order to have enemies not know where you are, you have to take the hide action.
As a rogue, your stealth check should be high enough that your hide action is in fact better than being invisible. Especially an invisible where you cannot do anything while using it. To top it all off, you can only use one with shadows in situations where you can use a hide check- the shadows. So why waste an action pinning yourself to a location, when you can just use a bonus action to slip the enemy's radar and move to a better location?
One with shadows is terrible and a waste of an invocation. Shroud of Shadow is far better, functionally, but that's lvl 15, and by that time, severely outclassed.
The spells of the Arcane Trickster, even using a spell slot, are better for a rogue, since you don't lose sneak attack dice, than trying to mash in warlock levels for invocations that don't really help a rogue.



Also, you can't sneak attack using Eldritch blast, so a rogue is better off using a bow/crossbow.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by sevensided:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

• Darkvision doesn't allow you to see through magical darkness.

True, but the darkness/devil sight combo is not worth the loss of sneak attack damage when the same effect can be mechanically achieved using invisibility for far less of an opportunity cost.

• Hide and invisibility are not the same thing, and neither are they mutually exclusive, plus One With Shadows lets you do it as often as you like without spending a resource.

Let me explain to you how bad of an invocation One With Shadows is. You can't do anything while using it. Nothing! Not even use stealth.
Its limitations are such that in order to use it in combat to give an enemy the slip, you effectively have to use your whole turn: First you have to take the hide action (a bonus action for rogues), THEN you use one with shadows (which uses your action). If you simply just try to use one with shadows, all you have done is make it so attacks against you are at disadvantage. Invisibility does not prevent enemies from knowing where you are or targeting you with attacks; in order to have enemies not know where you are, you have to take the hide action.
As a rogue, your stealth check should be high enough that your hide action is in fact better than being invisible. Especially an invisible where you cannot do anything while using it. To top it all off, you can only use one with shadows in situations where you can use a hide check- the shadows. So why waste an action pinning yourself to a location, when you can just use a bonus action to slip the enemy's radar and move to a better location?
One with shadows is terrible and a waste of an invocation. Shroud of Shadow is far better, functionally, but that's lvl 15, and by that time, severely outclassed.
The spells of the Arcane Trickster, even using a spell slot, are better for a rogue, since you don't lose sneak attack dice, than trying to mash in warlock levels for invocations that don't really help a rogue.

Also, you can't sneak attack using Eldritch blast, so a rogue is better off using a bow/crossbow.

Your problem is that you view everything through the myopic lens of DPR.

There are lots of situations where having a free to cast invisibility spell, even if you have to stand still to use it, combined with Hide is going to be very useful.

[sevensided]

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Your problem is that you view everything through the myopic lens of DPR.

There are lots of situations where having a free to cast invisibility spell, even if you have to stand still to use it, combined with Hide is going to be very useful.

There isn't, though. You will always have to hide before using one with shadows. And if you're successful hiding, then you don't need to be invisible. And doing so will often be worse, since it pins you to one spot and doesn't let you move about or do anything. Remember, you can only use One with Shadows in the same places you can Hide. For a rogue, this invocation is nigh useless

Ironically, you state I'm too focused on dpr, when mechanically, for a rogue, all invisibility does is give them advantage on attacks and disadvantage on attacks against them. In non combat situations stealth is typically sufficient, and when it isn't, the Kronk special of one with shadows will not help since it prevents you from doing anything.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Originally posted by sevensided:

Originally posted by Pan Darius Loveless:

Your problem is that you view everything through the myopic lens of DPR.

There are lots of situations where having a free to cast invisibility spell, even if you have to stand still to use it, combined with Hide is going to be very useful.

There isn't, though. You will always have to hide before using one with shadows. And if you're successful hiding, then you don't need to be invisible. And doing so will often be worse, since it pins you to one spot and doesn't let you move about or do anything. Remember, you can only use One with Shadows in the same places you can Hide. For a rogue, this invocation is nigh useless

Ironically, you state I'm too focused on dpr, when mechanically, for a rogue, all invisibility does is give them advantage on attacks and disadvantage on attacks against them. In non combat situations stealth is typically sufficient, and when it isn't, the Kronk special of one with shadows will not help since it prevents you from doing anything.

You lack imagination.

Guards are often on patrol routes. They move, they turn, they walk. Using One With Shadows and Hide, you could sneak up behind a guard, turn invisible before he turns around to look at you, wait for him to pass, then move again. If there's a whole series of guards like ghis, you could sneak past all of them using this technique.

There are multiple creatures that have this kind of behavior already.