Damage over time builds/options

[Hiro]

I just wanted to make a wish.

Please allow a few DoT builds to be viable and powerful damage options.

I can't remember a game that actually fulfilled that fantasy. That's it. Thank you for reading my post. It would be really helpful if, any players that share my feelings, upvoted this discussion so it would actually be implemented into existance.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Publicado originalmente por Gaius:

Publicado originalmente por Pan Darius Loveless:

This is false. Every concentration based spell that deals damage is a DoT (Cloud of Daggers, Moonbeam, Call Lightning, Hunger of Hadar, Ensnaring Strike, Flaming Sphere). And there are even more at higher levels.

I don't think they are what peole usually think when talking about DoTs. Dot's are debuffs in a character, not areas that deal damage every turn IF you stand on them. The obvious examples in BG3 would be poison and burning.

But I agree they aren't viable as a build by themselves. People coming from other RPGs and MMOs might be used to the afflicton warlocks and shadow priests, no such here - even tough they DO work in a action economy system, because they lack initial damage, the damage is just postponed and you do damage in later tuns - but this is a whole complicated discussion.

Even if you're limiting yourself to just effects cast against the target, you've got Heat Metal, Phantasmal Force, Bleeding (special weapon attacks), and Burning (various sources, such as Alchemist's Fire). I'm sure there's more, that's just off the top of my head.

[Yojo0o]

Publicado originalmente por Pan Darius Loveless:

Publicado originalmente por Gaius:

I don't think they are what peole usually think when talking about DoTs. Dot's are debuffs in a character, not areas that deal damage every turn IF you stand on them. The obvious examples in BG3 would be poison and burning.

But I agree they aren't viable as a build by themselves. People coming from other RPGs and MMOs might be used to the afflicton warlocks and shadow priests, no such here - even tough they DO work in a action economy system, because they lack initial damage, the damage is just postponed and you do damage in later tuns - but this is a whole complicated discussion.

Even if you're limiting yourself to just effects cast against the target, you've got Heat Metal, Phantasmal Force, Bleeding (special weapon attacks), and Burning (various sources, such as Alchemist's Fire). I'm sure there's more, that's just off the top of my head.

They tend to be supplemental, though. OP seems to be looking for support to entirely focus on such effects, as is possible in other systems.

[dulany67]

Something like a bleed effect is generally considered a dot.

[Gaius]

Publicado originalmente por ManBearCannon:

Publicado originalmente por ManBearCannon:

A method to make DoT viable could be for the damage-output to increase each turn.
...

Imagine this subclass in a fight with the fish people (underdark). The alchemist-poisoner drops an AOE noxious fumes spell in the center of the group, another party member casts entangle to keep most of them there, a 3rd party member focuses on the archers in the periphery, and a 4th party member applies poison-immunity and hits the enemies with opportunity attacks as they try to flee the fumes. I think that this would be a uniquely-fun playstyle.

Oh, you can actually do this king of thing. From the EA, your warlock has Hunger of Hadar, you can play that and a druid's Sleet Storm or Plant Growth and create a deadly area that's really hard to move out.

It's just not really pragmatic. Because the Lv cap at EA is Lv5 (and your enemies are also lv 5 at the Grymforge, the EA most high lv area), spending 2 Lv3 slots and not killing stuff imediately, or giving a HUGE buff like haste isn't the best decision - even it works.

I expect this usage for Lv3 spell slots to grow in value as the game goes on, because a single fireball will not be as relevant against a lv 10+ enemy, and over several turns the hunger and other upleveled AoE repeatable damage (Cloud of Daggers, moonbean, call lightning, etc) really give huge return over investment (both in terms of action economy and spell slots).

[Gaius]

Publicado originalmente por ManBearCannon:

Publicado originalmente por Gaius:

Oh, you can actually do this king of thing. From the EA, your warlock has Hunger of Hadar, you can play that and a druid's Sleet Storm or Plant Growth and create a deadly area that's really hard to move out.

It's just not really pragmatic. Because the Lv cap at EA is Lv5 (and your enemies are also lv 5 at the Grymforge, the EA most high lv area), spending 2 Lv3 slots and not killing stuff imediately, or giving a HUGE buff like haste isn't the best decision - even it works.

I expect this usage for Lv3 spell slots to grow in value as the game goes on, because a single fireball will not be as relevant against a lv 10+ enemy, and over several turns the hunger and other upleveled AoE repeatable damage (Cloud of Daggers, moonbean, call lightning, etc) really give huge return over investment (both in terms of action economy and spell slots).

The mechanics of what you described may be somewhat similar, but the roleplaying elements are nothing alike. A warlock using AOE tentacles is nothing like a poisoner using noxious gas in terms of roleplaying.

Also, I don't think the Warlock's ability scales the same way that I've suggested where the turn-one damage is insignificant but exposure is only deadly if it is over 2-3 turns. The damage scaling which I've proposed should make the spell deadly and viable for a specialized DoT party in BG3, unless you think the scaling needs to be tweaked somewhat?

On the RP side, well, it's a deadly area that does repeating damage, and I'm just saying what is possible. You can create poisonous vapours I think, but it would be HIGHLY overcomplicated (create a water surface, use fire on it to have a vapor cloud, THEN throw a poison flask, arrow or spell on it... I think it works, but it's really too much work for the effect).

Back to Hunger or Hadar, what I meant is - it's obvisouly not that useful if a fireball would instantly kill the targets anyway (and it often does that against targets with the EA lv cap of 5), but it could suspass the damage by a large margin if the targets lasted enough.

At spell slot Lv 3, HoH does 4D6 per turn, while fireball causes 8D6 (without save). It's even on the second turn, and HoH lasts for ten turns, possibly causing up to 5X the damage at the cost of the same 3rd lv slot and one action.

It could possibly kill high HP enemies if you crowd controled them to be unable to leave the area. It also gives blindness to creatures inside of it, so even ranged creatures are in real danger unless then can move out.

[Gaius]

Publicado originalmente por ManBearCannon:

@ Gaius
Sorry, I misinterpreted your post above. Yes, the HOH are actually a great example of DoT here, but I don't like the comparison to my proposal. My proposal is specifically built around the concept that the poison takes time for its' full effects to kick in, and the longer the exposure to it, the more deadly that it becomes.

Hm, increasing effects is something I don't think we can emulate with the tools we have so far (like adding DoT stacks, I guess, something like Guild Wars 2 burn specs or affliction warlocks in WoW?)

The only think we can do to my knowledge is adding conditions so the total DoT damage grows, but thot the stacks of a specific condition. Stacks seems to add turns on the target, not intensity.

[Gaius]

Publicado originalmente por ManBearCannon:

Publicado originalmente por Gaius:

Hm, increasing effects is something I don't think we can emulate with the tools we have so far (like adding DoT stacks, I guess, something like Guild Wars 2 burn specs or affliction warlocks in WoW?)

The only think we can do to my knowledge is adding conditions so the total DoT damage grows, but thot the stacks of a specific condition. Stacks seems to add turns on the target, not intensity.

Ah, you are more well-versed with the modding tools than I am. That is too bad then -- that the damage-scaling cannot be increased with each turn of exposure. Hopefully Larian will consider the subclass or granting the modding capability to make it possible.

I assume you are referring to modding capabilities?

I was actually talking about what's in the game ATM - I don't think a single DoT debuff has stacking intensity.

About mods, you'll need someone who is better versed at D&D 5e than me, because I feel modders will focus on making stuff to complete 5e tools the game lacks, so if 5e doesn't have intensity stacking DoTs, I'm not sure any modder will create something in that direction.

[JoeAnarchy]

Publicado originalmente por kill_the_hippy:

I just wanted to make a wish.

Please allow a few DoT builds to be viable and powerful damage options.

I can't remember a game that actually fulfilled that fantasy. That's it. Thank you for reading my post. It would be really helpful if, any players that share my feelings, upvoted this discussion so it would actually be implemented into existance.

IDK how much D&D 5e you play, but this game is based ENTIRELY on that.
So if you go buy a 5e players handbook, and find a way to build a solid DoT build, you should be able to translate it into this game.

[dolby]

Publicado originalmente por dulany67:

Something like a bleed effect is generally considered a dot.

Exactly... But he had to do a classic pan... even if you use moonbeam or whatever like flying daggers thingy they are still tied to concentration so you can't have more then one and the second you use one you lose one of the buff... anyway

I think I covered everything in first post heh... IF we going with moonbeam or dragger we just call it AoE push/move build not dot build cos they do damage every time an enemy is pushed or moved into Aoe... but again that is a far cry from a classic dot builds. The objective there is to get the target moved in and out aoe as much as possible.

[Zaris]

Publicado originalmente por kill_the_hippy:

I can't remember a game that actually fulfilled that fantasy.

Try out Diablo 3 Witchdoc dot build and you want to be it a fantasy again.

[Quillithe]

Publicado originalmente por Zaris:

Publicado originalmente por kill_the_hippy:

I can't remember a game that actually fulfilled that fantasy.

Try out Diablo 3 Witchdoc dot build and you want to be it a fantasy again.

I thought Path of Exile had some too.

Anyway, outside of action rpgs (particularly-diablo likes) you don't really get builds so specific like that.

[Hiro]

Publicado originalmente por Zaris:

Publicado originalmente por kill_the_hippy:

I can't remember a game that actually fulfilled that fantasy.

Try out Diablo 3 Witchdoc dot build and you want to be it a fantasy again.

Actually that where I come from, and I 've asked for years for a viable dot build specifically with the witch doctor, but alas, we got pets and stupid spirit explosions. He would have been perfect with so many underused skills like locusts and grasp of the dead of the top of my head or the Jade set build in general.

[wtiger27]

Publicado originalmente por Pan Darius Loveless:

Publicado originalmente por Meowella:

Moonbeam, Call Lightning, and Flaming Sphere are not DoTs because they require an action to use every time you wish them to deal damage.

This is literally not true of Moonbeam and Flaming Sphere as neither require you to use an action - Moonbeam will continue to deal damage to anything remaining in it's AoE, and Flaming Sphere gets it's own action as well as dealing damage to anything too close.

Besides that, there's nothing in the definition of DoT that says you can't spend actions on it. Persistent damage effects are DoTs. Witchbolt is a DoT.

And there will be many more at later levels - wall of fire, etc.

Exactly. I really like the Flaming Sphere spell and as you say, you cast it and then if the enemy is stupid enough to stand there while taking damage from the Sphere's aoe fire damage, you do not have to do anything, unless you want to Ram a enemy.