2h vs DW vs 1h + shield

[Volatility]

Just curious as to what people's thoughts are on the different fighting styles. Through a couple play throughs, I've used 1h + Shield or DW mostly. But I see a lot of people tout 2H.

I don't dig deep into the damage stats. And I have assumed the extra defense of +2 AC with a shield at least makes up for the less damage output of DW or 2H. But I'm interested to hear thoughts.

[Kernest]

Originally posted by MensRea:

For example I like a sword and shield Paladin, I like that I can use a versatile weapon (long sword) in one hand for 1d8(vice 1d10) and carry a shield but then can take a combat perk (dueling) that effectively gives me back the 2 points of damage if I want it. Balance between role play and game play needs.

First of all, 1d8 does on average 1 damage less than 1d10 because that's how averages work.

Secondly,

Duelling doesn't work with a shield...

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by Kernest:

Originally posted by MensRea:

For example I like a sword and shield Paladin, I like that I can use a versatile weapon (long sword) in one hand for 1d8(vice 1d10) and carry a shield but then can take a combat perk (dueling) that effectively gives me back the 2 points of damage if I want it. Balance between role play and game play needs.

First of all, 1d8 does on average 1 damage less than 1d10 because that's how averages work.

Secondly,

Duelling doesn't work with a shield...

Dueling 100% works with a shield. The only requirement is that you not be wielding any other weapons other than a one-handed melee weapon, and a shield is not defined as a weapon by the game.

[Kernest]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

Originally posted by Kernest:

First of all, 1d8 does on average 1 damage less than 1d10 because that's how averages work.

Secondly,

Duelling doesn't work with a shield...

Dueling 100% works with a shield. The only requirement is that you not be wielding a weapon in your other hand, and a shield is not defined as a weapon by the game.

Oh wow, apparently it does even in proper DnD 5e...

That's stupid

[MensRea]

Originally posted by jonnin:

If we agree that +1 AC is a waste of your style choice (unless maybe champion high level 2nd pick) ... then your style should do something on every attack. Great weapon and protection styles only work sometimes, and are immediately suspect as inferior... great weapon only works 1 out of 10 attacks and protection only works in a microscopic radius in a game where standing close together is usually a bad plan.

While I would normally agree with you here, in this game, they have made good strides in making that not the case with things like the Paladin aura of +2 to saving throws within a certain range. So for instance if your Paladin was standing next to that high Dex thief and a fireball gets thrown at them, the high dex savings throw gets even higher and likely to make most aoe attacks a miss. Couple that with some spells/items where damage can be transferred from a low HP to high HP character and even the half damage of some spells could find themselves gimped to negligible. Granted high damage low mitigation is far easier for most people to understand and use than defense tactics but I have to give them props for making protection more viable in this game than in most I have seen in the past. Heck I even took the shield proficiency feat cause it makes my Paladin less squishy in the middle of AOE spams (assuming anyone gets any spells off with my Arcane Trickster or Wizard, shutting them down with counter spell)

[em_t_hed]

Originally posted by Mork:

The more i play, the more i think offense is the best defense...

up until the lorrokan fight... all of a sudden your offense is reflected so if you DPS you just kill yourself fast.

[MensRea]

Originally posted by Kernest:

Originally posted by MensRea:

For example I like a sword and shield Paladin, I like that I can use a versatile weapon (long sword) in one hand for 1d8(vice 1d10) and carry a shield but then can take a combat perk (dueling) that effectively gives me back the 2 points of damage if I want it. Balance between role play and game play needs.

First of all, 1d8 does on average 1 damage less than 1d10 because that's how averages work.

Secondly,

Duelling doesn't work with a shield...

Dueling does work with shield. I tested to make sure (they just worded it badly in the description) and it also means that sword and shield gives you 1d8 +2 vice 1d10 so your minimum damage will always be 3 vice 1 with just sword alone (max is the same). So I am quite happy with it as they designed it.

[Kernest]

Originally posted by MensRea:

it also means that sword and shield gives you 1d8 +2 vice 1d10 so your minimum damage will always be 3 vice 1 with just sword alone (max is the same). So I am quite happy with it as they designed it.

I got it wrong on Duelling, but not on the math.

1d10 averages 5.5 dmg per hit, 1d8 is 4.5, 1 damage difference.

My point was that +2 to damage brings your average damage to 6.5, 1 better than what 1d10 deals.

And 6.5 is what 1d12 deals on average.

[Yasahi]

Originally posted by em_t_hed:

Originally posted by Mork:

The more i play, the more i think offense is the best defense...

up until the lorrokan fight... all of a sudden your offense is reflected so if you DPS you just kill yourself fast.

Globe of Invulnerability solves that nicely and then you can just go on blasting.

Being able to go first is the real winner. Damage comes second. After that it doesn't really matter that much how tough you are since most of the enemies will be dead already.

[jonnin]

hmm, I see.

So the 2h one with a 2d6 weapon seems pretty solid. Does it also reroll secondary damage, eg if you had the starter greatsword would it reroll the fire damage on a 1 or 2? Regardless, that makes rolling low damage far less likely.

as for protection, yes you can make it work, but it feels like those ideas are late game, while your style comes in pretty early. Most of act 1 and part of act 2 seems every archer has a sack of acid arrows and every fighter has a stack of the vials, all dropping the AC of multiple targets, no save you just have to not stand in the pool. Ive tended to spread out on most fights because of this kind of thing, or their aoe darkness spells and arrows as well. Its not even the fireballs that ruin my day, its the annoying stuff.

[Beast of War]

If they can wear heavy armor : all STR + spell stat + STA build, shield is not productive but 2H is.

If they can't wear heavy armour : all DEX + spell stat + STA build, shield is not productive, but bows and finesse weapons are.

I am using a 2H greatsword Warlock, funny weapon for a spell caster (1st playthrough i gave him a staff like all spellcasters lol ) but with the blade pact conjured weapons are all like that. I used the conjured 2H's without STR stats as it gets that magically untill i noticed conjured weapons CAN be disarmed in battle. So now i am using a high STR warlock with light armour. Very interesting, he hits very hard in melee ( and with his WL spells ) but he can take very little, had to bump his DEX too to be survivable enough. For non boss fights that is ok even on tactician difficulty.

IRL history there have been 2H greatsword mercenaries without armour ( just like my Warlock ) but when they had, they needed no ( and could not equip ) shield.

[wendigo211]

The 2H style is pretty crap if you run the math on it. 1d6 goes from 3.5 average to 4.2 so a Greatsword does 8.4 instead of 7 points of damage on average and that's the best case. The D12 damage weapons go from 6.5 to 7.3 on average and the D10 weapons go from 5.5 to 6.3 on average.

Given that in D&D +1 to hit=+1 to AC=+2 to damage, I'll take defense over 2H style.

Edit: note that while Duelling style works with a shield. The Gloves of Duelling (+2 to hit and damage with nothing in your off-hand) do not work with a shield.

[Beast of War]

Originally posted by wendigo211:

The 2H style is pretty crap if you run the math on it. 1d6 goes from 3.5 average to 4.2 so a Greatsword does 8.4 instead of 7 points of damage on average and that's the best case. The D12 damage weapons go from 6.5 to 7.3 on average and the D10 weapons go from 5.5 to 6.3 on average.

Given that in D&D +1 to hit=+1 to AC=+2 to damage, I'll take protection over 2H style.

Its is not only the damage, it is the pitiful sound of a 1H as well.....binggg......binggg....

And it should, what on earth are you going to do with a 1H sword against a steel armored opponent ? That is for bad quality movies.

The game seems to be somewhat true to RL physics when it comes to melee : in 2 playthroughs i have felt the effect of enemies getting heavier and heavier armor ( mostly leather in Act 1 but very heavy plate in Act 3 ) and if you ever visited a REAL castle with a REAL armoury you would have seen no 1H swords, only pretty brutal weapons that can either pierce steel plate or hammer it. ( and in most cases both ) All these weapons are in game, and they seem to work just as they should.

1H swords are for killing rag clothed peasants, at maximum a leather armored foe.....not steel plate armoured enemies. Those need a stout hammering.

[daveyfunk]

Shield and 1 hand weapon doesn't really come into things. That only really makes sense for magic/melee where you use magic as your main damage, the shield for extra defence and a weapon is situational. I use sword and shield for my warlock pact of the blade, but more for style choice than for damage

I would imagine 2 weapons would be more damage with the dual wielding feats and so you can use 2 1 hand weapon of choice. I think with something like hunters mark or hex for extra damage on each weapon attack, extra attack from classes and going into thief for the extra bonus attack this would average out to being the more damage?

[Yasahi]

Great Weapon Master feat is just so good that there's really no point in running anything else on a melee focused frontliner unless you're doing it for roleplaying reasons or because you like it and don't care for the most maxed out build.

[Loot]

Honestly, the only character I've been able to deal big damage with while using a 1h and shield has been my Warladin. The Charge-Bound Warhammer is just so strong and you don't need to 2 hand it do deal damage with it.