Character representation

[Mazzle Dazzle]

Anyone find it weird that all of the companion women in this game have 10 or below intelligence?

Alternatively, Wyll has 13, Gale has 17, Astarian has 13. Halsin and Minsc are dummies at 8 int but it's still a more balanced representation.

Now Gale, and Astarian both have mechanical reasons for this such as arcane trickster progression and wizard progression but Wyll doesn't.

I feel like this plays out in the narrative as well in the characters reactions and behaviors which I feel like is kind of insulting. Women can be intelligent too. It seems really weird that there is no representation of that within the companions.

I really only mention this because for a long time men were always portrayed as the dumb warrior type and it pissed me off that they were always portrayed as clueless and made stupid decisions all of the time. I think as a gamer, we all have a bit of a nerdy bent to get pulled into a game of this sort. I also get the push to make women into more physically strong roles for representation in games as its not frequently done but eldritch knights are also a thing as well and we could have had a woman fill that role and be intelligent while also being badass.

I don't know, it might seem weird as so many games portray women in the caster capacity but it seems weird that men are portrayed in a balanced way with some intelligent and some dumb and women are just all average or below average intelligence.

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Originally posted by cocafire:

Don't you find it weird that not a single male character in this game has above 12 strength?

Halsin and Minsc are physically weaker than Shadowheart, Minthara, Karlach and Lae'zel.

You can be at war with reality all you want, but then at least make the new rules work for both sides. Not that in the end it will make a difference, but as an exercise.

That's objectively incorrect, unless by "male character" you mean "male companion".

TBH, I find it weirder that any player went and compared the stats between men and women to make sure they followed some checklist or whatever.

Then by that logic OP is wrong too. There are non-companion female characters with high INT. So the topic is exhausted.

[Zarek]

Originally posted by cocafire:

Don't you find it weird that not a single male character in this game has above 12 strength?

Halsin and Minsc are physically weaker than Shadowheart, Minthara, Karlach and Lae'zel.

You can be at war with reality all you want, but then at least make the new rules work for both sides. Not that in the end it will make a difference, but as an exercise.

Minsc has a strength dumpstat? Havent gotten to him yet but the dude was rocking mega strength in BG2, he ripped his metal cage open. Thats literally how you are introduced to him in that title!

*Edit*: Did these devs play that title, at all? I mean even 5 minutes in one would note Minsc is strong.

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

That's objectively incorrect, unless by "male character" you mean "male companion".

TBH, I find it weirder that any player went and compared the stats between men and women to make sure they followed some checklist or whatever.

Then by that logic OP is wrong too. There are non-companion female characters with high INT. So the topic is exhausted.

OP says "companion", so no.

[id795078477]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

Originally posted by id795078477:

Then by that logic OP is wrong too. There are non-companion female characters with high INT. So the topic is exhausted.

OP says "companion", so no.

Then why are you mentioning non companion males? Be consistent then.

And either way - we don't have:
-- Any "short" races among companions
-- Any "asian"-looking companions
-- Any "african"-looking companions (Wyll doesn't count, duh)
-- the list goes on

point is: if someone wants, they can always complain. And when game devs start to cave in to those complains instead of doing what makes sense in lore and implement their vision, games become a trainwreck.

[PinkPanther]

Originally posted by cocafire:

Don't you find it weird that not a single male character in this game has above 12 strength?

Halsin and Minsc are physically weaker than Shadowheart, Minthara, Karlach and Lae'zel.

You can be at war with reality all you want, but then at least make the new rules work for both sides. Not that in the end it will make a difference, but as an exercise.

Damn, I'm part of the problem, since my wizard as a STR score of 8... but hey, my higher CON gave me enough to satisfy Lae'zel, so I got that going for me...

Jokes aside, with stats you want all of them to be max, but you can't. So you give up those, that benefit you the least.

Honestly I think this is just a joke thread. If it is, it's a good one :)

[Orion Invictus]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

OP says "companion", so no.

Then why are you mentioning non companion males? Be consistent then.

And either way - we don't have:
-- Any "short" races among companions
-- Any "asian"-looking companions
-- Any "african"-looking companions (Wyll doesn't count, duh)
-- the list goes on

point is: if someone wants, they can always complain. And when game devs start to cave in to those complains instead of doing what makes sense in lore and implement their vision, games become a trainwreck.

Because cocafire is not OP, and cocafire said "male character". Two different people, two different statements.

[Vixziค็็็็็n]

Originally posted by id795078477:

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

OP says "companion", so no.

Then why are you mentioning non companion males? Be consistent then.

And either way - we don't have:
-- Any "short" races among companions
-- Any "asian"-looking companions
-- Any "african"-looking companions (Wyll doesn't count, duh)
-- the list goes on

point is: if someone wants, they can always complain. And when game devs start to cave in to those complains instead of doing what makes sense in lore and implement their vision, games become a trainwreck.

Very little of this game makes sense within the lore so not sure where you're going with that.

[Mazzle Dazzle]

Originally posted by cocafire:

Don't you find it weird that not a single male character in this game has above 12 strength?

Halsin and Minsc are physically weaker than Shadowheart, Minthara, Karlach and Lae'zel.

You can be at war with reality all you want, but then at least make the new rules work for both sides. Not that in the end it will make a difference, but as an exercise.

I actually don't because the stats are based on averages. Being at 12 strength is still above average and even in real life being skilled in technique is often more advantageous. There is a big difference with everyone being 12 and below and being 10 and below with int being emphasized. It's not weird at all. Even if they made some gnome characters and gave them 8 strength, that still wouldn't change my opinion because there are other characters that have above average strength. It makes sense for a woman adventurer with mundane abilities to be more strong and dextrous than the average person especially if they are reliant on physical actions. As for those saying class mechanics, Wyll has 13 int for no mechanical reason. Also has no one roleplayed in D&D? You frequently take stats that are less optimal for roleplay. I for one never dump stat intelligence because I don't like roleplaying a stupid character. I'm far more likely to dump stat dex or charisma if anything even if suboptimal mechanically for role play purposes. I love characters that are clumsy or have spent too much time in the wilderness so they lack social graces. But like I said before there are also martial classes which benefit from intelligence like eldritch knight.

Also why do people think representation matters and simultaneously think it doesn't matter. It's pretty obvious it matters. Have you looked at these forums about people feeling like they are not properly represented. I've seen men complain about how there are no "strong" male characters for sure but honestly I think that is a viewpoint I fundamentally disagree with. There are plenty of strong male characters, just because you don't think well above average strength is strong or having various powers supplementing that strength is strong doesn't make it true. But having a character have low intelligence and act stupid narratively, does absolutely make them average or low intelligence.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by Mazzle Dazzle:

Anyone find it weird that all of the companion women in this game have 10 or below intelligence?

Alternatively, Wyll has 13, Gale has 17, Astarian has 13. Halsin and Minsc are dummies at 8 int but it's still a more balanced representation.

Now Gale, and Astarian both have mechanical reasons for this such as arcane trickster progression and wizard progression but Wyll doesn't.

Wyll would find it very handy if multi-classed with wizard which, if you intended to run him as main caster with, say, Shadowheart, Astarion ands Lai'zel it might make more sense than making him a Sorlock 'cos of the much wider box of tools wizard would give him.

As to the general point can you not use Withers to respec stats? If so I'd say the whole issue is moot.

[cocafire]

Originally posted by Orion Invictus:

TBH, I find it weirder that any player went and compared the stats between men and women to make sure they followed some checklist or whatever.

I find that odd too. But I did look up on the bg3 wiki after reading the thread and found a bunch of interesting things

And my bad, before when I said character I meant companion.

Among the companions, all of the girls are stronger than all the men. There is not a single female companion that is weaker physically than any of the men.

Jaheira, Shadowheart, Lae'zel, Karlach and Minthara all have strength scores equal or above 13.

The strongest man in the game is Minsc with 12, who as another user pointed out was a 18 strength character in Baldur's Gate 2 and expected to be a dumb, good natured and strong character. They gave him 12 strength...

In the first scene of Baldur's Gate 2, Minsc rages because he is held captive and busts his cage open and it takes a bit longer than it should to realize that he was free and that he could have done that before if he wanted to...

I dunno, that looks to me like a very weird thing that the developers did here. I guess that video game studios also need to have a lot of artists.

[Baphled]

It's weird and not weird. Their classes have the least use for the intelligence stat. It's not particularly helpful for any character that doesn't plan on casting wizard spells.

Also the characters aren't well represented by their stats in the game. Shadowheart comes off as intelligent in the game, even though he intelligence stat is pretty average. Interestingly Halsin has an even worse intelligence score, but he's been doing actual research on the tadpoles. You can see he appears quite strong, but has an average strength score. Where Lae'zel looks kind of lanky, but has great strength and constitution. Astarion has above average intelligence, but he also says and does some incredibly dumb things. He's also a vampire but has kind of a crummy strength score.

Basically the stats don't seem to align with the characters personality or appearance.

[lamb sauce locator]

Complete misunderstanding of the DnD stats.

10 in any stat makes you a regular human person. Average. Nothing special. If you were put into any universe in DnD right now you'd have 10 in everything. Maybe 9.

Intelligence isn't actually how smart you are. Intelligence isn't an indicator as to how well you know your maths times tables. Intelligence is more about awareness, memory, and critical thinking.

Having higher than I'd say 13 or 14 in any stat makes you a super human by real life standards. Maybe someone like, Stephen Hawking would have 14 intelligence.

Shadowheart has high Wisdom because Wisdom is more about understanding the actual world, which is what you would get if you were raised in a religious cult like she was. Similarly, Charisma is about understanding people, so a bard who lived a life of performing and cunning would have more charisma than the average human.

[Vixziค็็็็็n]

Originally posted by Mazzle Dazzle:

Also why do people think representation matters and simultaneously think it doesn't matter. It's pretty obvious it matters. Have you looked at these forums about people feeling like they are not properly represented. I've seen men complain about how there are no "strong" male characters for sure but honestly I think that is a viewpoint I fundamentally disagree with. There are plenty of strong male characters, just because you don't think well above average strength is strong or having various powers and intellect is strong doesn't make it true. But having a character have low intelligence and act stupid narratively, does absolutely make them average or low intelligence.

So then it sounds like it only matters if you agree with it. Using the "strong" example all you have to do is think of the optics alone and be able to understand why people feel that way.

It's not about breaking something down into the minutia to judge it from whatever position you feel is the right one, it's about being able to understand it from another viewpoint and then determining whether or not (objectivity non-withstanding) there is an argument to be made.

I personally see the argument if I just look without doing anything else at the companions. You have one physically intimidating female barbarian, you have a gith warrior... leaving a mage which obviously isn't physically imposing, a vampire rogue whom just listening to him is clearly not imposing, leaving Wyll who also is clearly not physically imposing. Looking at the NPCs most of the leadership roles are women (Wylls father doesn't count being he's a puppet the entire time) leaving the villains which I feel are represented well enough.

So again by your own logic it either matters or it doesn't. Which is it?

[Glyph]

Shadowheart has high wisdom because she is a cleric. It's their main stat. In 5e in particular stats are quite divorced from the narrative.

[Mazzle Dazzle]

Originally posted by lamb sauce locator:

Complete misunderstanding of the DnD stats.

10 in any stat makes you a regular human person. Average. Nothing special. If you were put into any universe in DnD right now you'd have 10 in everything. Maybe 9.

Intelligence isn't actually how smart you are. Intelligence isn't an indicator as to how well you know your maths times tables. Intelligence is more about awareness, memory, and critical thinking.

Having higher than I'd say 13 or 14 in any stat makes you a super human by real life standards. Maybe someone like, Stephen Hawking would have 14 intelligence.

Shadowheart has high Wisdom because Wisdom is more about understanding the actual world, which is what you would get if you were raised in a religious cult like she was. Similarly, Charisma is about understanding people, so a bard who lived a life of performing and cunning would have more charisma than the average human.

You realize I mentioned that numerous times? Like all of that? My point is, at best they are average. Not above average, average or below average. That is why I expressed my discontent with the representation.