Has the "Strong-Woman" trope run its course?

[srfrogg23]

Most of the warriors and melee characters are females while the spell casters and rogues are males. Ok, so most of the entertainment industry for male-oriented products these days has jumped on that bandwagon under the false pretense that they're doing something "new" and "different", or whatever. It's fine, I bought the game anyway and I'm enjoying it, but am I really the only one whose finding this trend to be pretty tiresome?

Why is the idea of women dying on the front-lines of combat so popular in today's entertainment industry? What kind of school did the writers go to where all of the jocks in their school were girls and the guys just sat around in the background? In what world are women the most brutal and violent gender while males are the passive intellectuals?

I personally don't find the "warrior woman" archetype to be intimidating like I would expect an axe-wielding barbarian or heavily armored knight to be. Take Karlach for example. Super bubbly. Pretty nice chick. I'd have a few beers with her. But, I just don't see her as being a "badass". She seems more like a Pick Me girl than anything else, really. Lae'zel seems worse. Scrawny. Generally cranky, but not particularly scary, either.

I think Orin might be the only female character in the game that I legitimately find intimidating. Not because she's brutishly strong, but because she's got that psycho-Harley Quinn thing going. She's a few sandwiches short of a picnic, if you know what I mean.

So, of course, melee combat, the thing that guys have historically been thrown on the frontlines to do is now reserved for women, so instead the males now sneak around or fling spells from the back while women half their size are expected to do all the fighting. I know it's a fantasy world, but there's really only so much I can do to suspend disbelief. What kinds of guys would be like, "hey you with the ovaries, yeah, you go first and get hit in the face with an axe while I hide behind you".

All in all, I think it would be refreshing to see the entertainment industry create characters and scenarios that are more reflective of the world we live in today.

[Vixziค็็็็็n]

Originally posted by XGear:

Originally posted by WildOrchid:

I know right? You'd think that there are men with... oh, different tastes? This is what i mean with some men thinking all men want the same thing.

You want women to not wear make up (i've legit seen men say it, i promise you that)... you want women to wear makeup? What do you want already?

Or maybe just accept the fact there are men and women with very different tastes.

I mentioned "Makeup" not as a statement that every woman should use, but as one of the "Items" that women use in order to feel more beautiful, regardless of whether they have natural beauty or not. However, in modern games, female warrior characters, for reasons I don't know, must always have a "Masculine, angry, and aggressive" appearance, depriving themselves of any tools that make them appear to be what they are, "Women". My sister is a master of Capoeira and Jiu Jitsu, and can definitely defeat many men easily in real life. Her appearance is pleasant and feminine. So for me, I don't understand where this idea from developers comes from that for a woman to be strong, she needs to be Aggressive, Enraged, act and behave like a man, and deprive herself of beauty tools that women like to use. . A character with this theme is interesting in a plot, but this has become a standard in practically 80% of female characters in current games. Whenever I see brave female characters in current games, they always look the same, with another "Skin". It's time to review the concept of feminine strength and personality.

I mean you're not wrong here. It's a well socially researched fact that males have agreeableness as a characteristic that they find highly attractive in females. Agreeableness is not defined as "agree with everything I say" by the way, it's a descriptor that means non-aggressive, likable, sweet, soft... That is a trait the transcends behavior it's also something that men like as a physical trait as well. A woman who has a more feminine look. That's why generally speaking they like women shorter than them, smaller in stature, and just cute in general. There's a reason in anime\manga that the ridiculously over the top cute female characters are the most popular even more so than what is considered 'sexy'.

I also agree that there is a current trend fueled by feminism which has elevated masculinity as the 'prize' for women even though they hate it in men (wtf?? how does that even work) while all the while attacking the thing that they are naturally and biologically more attuned to which is femininity. Femininity needs to be correctly and better showcased as strength in itself.

[Quillithe]

Originally posted by IlluminaZero:

Originally posted by Dwarving:

---

I suspect half the "problem" is that people just don't like to see women suffer. Much of that depth and character growth is predicated on suffering and personal failures. "Mary Sues" typically are disallowed this. Hell the entire universe basically contorts itself to accommodate "Mary Sues."

Basically - I suspect that if people were serious about allowing greater depth in female roles they need to allow women the capacity to suffer in the same way men are expected to.

Honestly yeah, there is somewhat more risk of criticism when showing failings of women or making them the butt of a joke. I think plenty of media still do, but some will frequently stay away a bit more.

Heck, look at the big sitcom trend that at least used to exist in the 90's where the husband would be stupid and fat and the wife would be beautiful and perfect.

Some of this is the male gaze (the wives being far hotter part) but some definitely feels like it was just considered more acceptable to make fun of men.


But at the same time I don't actually think any BG 3 women are written like this anyway, they have plenty of weaknesses.

[Popsicles]

So many conservatives are scared of strong woman. It is truly fascinating. Look nearly 200 pages of vitriol over the fear of femininity combined with strength. I fear for your daughters. I'm sure you treat them like pure ♥♥♥♥.

[IlluminaZero]

Originally posted by Tinball (Banned):

So many conservatives are scared of strong woman. It is truly fascinating. Look nearly 200 pages of vitriol over the fear of femininity combined with strength. I fear for your daughters. I'm sure you treat them like pure ♥♥♥♥.

Eh - I love strong women. A fun little factoid in fact:

"Tomboys" actually predate "feminism." This is documented as men in the 1900s actually WANTED women to do boyish things since general athleticism is objectively good for their bodies. The primary rationality is that there might be less miscarriages due physical weakness.

You can actually find articles of feminists attacking tomboys as "tools of the patriarchy" for this reason. There actually isn't much evidence that men disliked the concept of "strong" women. The question is likely how one quantifies "strength."

Addendum:
An Example: https://lithub.com/the-racist-history-of-celebrating-the-american-tomboy/

[Professor Hugedix]

Originally posted by Tinball (Banned):

So many conservatives are scared of strong woman. It is truly fascinating. Look nearly 200 pages of vitriol over the fear of femininity combined with strength. I fear for your daughters. I'm sure you treat them like pure ♥♥♥♥.

Nobody's afraid of clumsy caricatures. They're bored of them. This is like saying people are scared of shadow the hedgehog AMVs.

[Vixziค็็็็็n]

Originally posted by Tinball (Banned):

So many conservatives are scared of strong woman. It is truly fascinating. Look nearly 200 pages of vitriol over the fear of femininity combined with strength. I fear for your daughters. I'm sure you treat them like pure ♥♥♥♥.

No ones scared of females. Strength is completely relative unfortunately due to feminists and SJWs wanting to move the goal post and redefine strength to mean masculine strength (despite the fact that said feminists hate masculinity unless it's females exhibiting it... go figure). Also not sure why you call out conservatives here, conservatives are the ones upholding femininity as the real strength in women rather than some watered down embodiment of masculinity that is nothing more than a worse version of the real thing.

[Quillithe]

Originally posted by Professor Hugedix:

Originally posted by Tinball (Banned):

So many conservatives are scared of strong woman. It is truly fascinating. Look nearly 200 pages of vitriol over the fear of femininity combined with strength. I fear for your daughters. I'm sure you treat them like pure ♥♥♥♥.

Nobody's afraid of clumsy caricatures. They're bored of them. This is like saying people are scared of shadow the hedgehog AMVs.

You aren't scared of shadow the hedgehog AMVs?

[Professor Hugedix]

Originally posted by Quillithe:

Originally posted by Professor Hugedix:

Nobody's afraid of clumsy caricatures. They're bored of them. This is like saying people are scared of shadow the hedgehog AMVs.

You aren't scared of shadow the hedgehog AMVs?

Only when he points the gun directly at the camera so it looks like he's threatening me, but that should always have a trigger warning so it's irrelevant to the discussion.

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by MewTressym:

My perspective was from considering her as a Barbarian literally using Rage as a mechanic and channeling anger as a source of her power and from how she approaches conflict as we had discussed prior. She does relish in combat and conquest of an opponent, which is a masculine trait.
.

My tav as a ranger "...maybe i'm a woman after all"

[Mizu]

Originally posted by Vixzian:

Originally posted by PUTLER:

Video game devs just want to make more money by attracting women into the video game industry, it's really that simple

To do so at the expense of their core consumer base is a huge mistake. And make no mistake that market is men and those ridiculous statistics that want to make it as if women are invested in gaming as much as men are is akin to the pay gap statistic...meaning it's bs. It all falls apart once you dig into the details. Men invest more of their time into gaming, they spend more money on gaming, and they are much more into bigger gaming platforms and big budget games as opposed to mobile, social games, etc.

Culture warriors aren't the games core consumer base. Most people who play CRPGs don't care that the default frontline melee companions are female in this game and have higher strength scores then male companions whose classes make it a waste to give them a high strength score. This game is point buy, you can't just keep rerolling dice for an hour until you get a character whose stats are all maxxed. There is no room to give Halsin maxxed strength without taking away from stats he actually needs like wisdom.

[Ruffio]

Originally posted by Grumpy:

Originally posted by MewTressym:

My perspective was from considering her as a Barbarian literally using Rage as a mechanic and channeling anger as a source of her power and from how she approaches conflict as we had discussed prior. She does relish in combat and conquest of an opponent, which is a masculine trait.
.

My tav as a ranger "...maybe i'm a woman after all"

Your ranger molded after Legolas? Good chance you are j/k -)

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by Ruffio:

Originally posted by Grumpy:

My tav as a ranger "...maybe i'm a woman after all"

Your ranger molded after Legolas? Good chance you are j/k -)

"They're taking the gnomes to Moonrise Tower !"

[Ruffio]

Originally posted by Grumpy:

Originally posted by Ruffio:

Your ranger molded after Legolas? Good chance you are j/k -)

"They took the gnomes to Moonrise Tower !"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE-1RPDqJAY

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by Ruffio:

Originally posted by Grumpy:

"They took the gnomes to Moonrise Tower !"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE-1RPDqJAY

"Tell me where is Ketheric for i much desire to speak to him "
"A chosen of Myrkull"

Gale : "Stop singing the damn thing !"

[srfrogg23]

Originally posted by Quillithe:

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

It's not and it exists outside of action heroes. That is only a part of exhibiting masculine behaviour, while straying away from anything considered feminine. The 'strong female character' trope is an over correction to the 'damsel in distress' trope, and at the core of it lies the lack of actual weaknesses, something that leads to the creation of one dimensional female characters, which lack complexity and have little to no development.

Honestly part of the mess of this thread is there's a ton of different stuff going on it could be about:

- female characters and their strength attribute

- female characters and how the lore and visuals treat their strength (NOT the same as above, as attributes are pretty different from how the narrative treats people in this game)

- 'strong women' in the sense of strong independent women

- 'strong women' in the sense of women being written as very traditionally masculine characters, like if you just gender swapped Conan with the same dialogue or something

- 'strong women' in the sense of excessive Mary Sue protagonists


The final one of these is something that's not good writing (though people overreact to it a ton compared to when male characters get to do this all the time). It's not happening here for sure though

Heh, you can take my original post at face value. I'm literally only talking about the arrangement of the fictional characters as they are trending in the entertainment industry.

I know there are A LOT of responses from people who have been trying to extrapolate some more insidious meaning behind my post, like "oh, this guy hates women!" or "he's insecure!" or "he thinks women are inferior!" or whatever other stupid crap, but they're all very, very wrong.

It really boils down to the trend of making EVERY warrior character female as a virtue-signaling social statement. A cynical bid for more sales by pandering to the things that social activists say online.

There's obviously nothing wrong with a strong or willful female character, or even a female melee character, but there is no way that EVERY SINGLE FRONTLINE SOLDIER IS GOING TO BE FEMALE in any universe. That kind of blatant disregard for human nature is genuinely immersion shattering.

It's like trying to claim that ONLY women play sports and ONLY women commit acts of violence, and ONLY women serve in the military in the real world. It's counterintuitive and silly for the entertainment industry to to try to make those kinds of claims when we have millions of examples illustrating a very different dynamic between the sexes.

And yes, there is a tendency for "strong women" to basically just be toxic male characters with female actresses and character models or are Mary Sues, which are both kind of lazy writing.