So Karlach and Wyll are kinda evil, I guess.

[BadScientist]

They both disapprove of handing Redhammer over to the Waveservants. The guy was a mass murderer (or at the very least a mass manslaughterer) and knowingly facilitated the torture, imprisonment, and enslavement of countless people. Yet Wyll and Karlach want me to let him get away scot-free? I just don't understand that.

[gerald2]

Originally posted by steelcoresoviet:

He was following legal orders issued by his Archduke.

And remember, you aren't turning him into the watch for judgement, this is an extralegal assassination.

well you know SS soldiers in death camps also followed legal orders,Stalin's NKWD also followed legal orders ...

[Doomvora]

Originally posted by BadScientist:

Yeah. Not sure what that has to do with anything, though. The choice is either let him get away with his many abhorrent crimes, or let him be executed by one of the groups he wronged. Who they are doesn't matter. I'm decided his fate. Not theirs.

You're handing over a man that just helped you rescue a bunch of people (again, even if coerced) to a bunch of umberlee (evil deity btw) wave servants who are known to be really ♥♥♥♥♥♥ in the head. A character that is ANY alignment of good (which both karlach and wyll would be based on their approvals) would not be okay with that.

Who they are does matter if you're looking at it from the perspective of npcs, the fact that you're deciding his fate is exactly why the companions approve/disapprove.

[BadScientist]

Originally posted by Doomvora:

Originally posted by BadScientist:

Yeah. Not sure what that has to do with anything, though. The choice is either let him get away with his many abhorrent crimes, or let him be executed by one of the groups he wronged. Who they are doesn't matter. I'm decided his fate. Not theirs.

You're handing over a man that just helped you rescue a bunch of people (again, even if coerced) to a bunch of umberlee (evil deity btw) wave servants who are known to be really ♥♥♥♥♥♥ in the head. A character that is ANY alignment of good (which both karlach and wyll would be based on their approvals) would not be okay with that.

Who they are does matter if you're looking at it from the perspective of npcs, the fact that you're deciding his fate is exactly why the companions approve/disapprove.

Again, you're talking about things that aren't in the game. All we know about Umberlee in the game is that she's a sea goddess that gives 0 ♥♥♥♥♥ about human life. All we know about the priestesses is that they consider drowning to be a blessing. As far as we know, they haven't killed anyone. Redhammer has. They haven't facilitated enslavement and torture. Redhammer has. And again, Redhammer did not rescue anyone. He just drove the boat because he had to. And the people I rescued needed rescuing in large part because of him. He had more of a choice when transporting the prisoners down there than he did when taking me.

[MewTressym]

Most of the companions have arcs that involve them being evil on some level or another. Whether lawful evil, neutral evil, or chaotic evil, they all sort of skirt the lines between neutral and evil and sometimes occasionally good.

Shadowheart in particular starts as a distinctly evil character, and you can either push her further in to it, or you can sort of bring her to the neutral/good path to some extent. Laezel stays pretty much lawful evil throughout as far as I can tell as she just can switch to seeing one law over another of sorts without spoiling too much. Will is very definitely evil (the self righteous hero types often are). Astarion too. Gale is definitely chaotic neutral and dips in to chaotic good and chaotic evil at various points. I think the only companion characters that start off as good and mostly stay that way are probably Halsin and arguably Jaheira.

Of all the main companions I think the one that has the most alignment change throughout is probably ShadowHeart.

Would have loved to have had Alfira as a neutral good companion.

[Glyph]

Wyll and Karlach take issue with you throwing a guy to the evil cultists who make no illusion about killing him on the spot.

[Doomvora]

Originally posted by BadScientist:

Again, you're talking about things that aren't in the game. All we know about Umberlee in the game is that she's a sea goddess that gives 0 ♥♥♥♥♥ about human life. All we know about the priestesses is that they consider drowning to be a blessing. As far as we know, they haven't killed anyone. Redhammer has. They haven't facilitated enslavement and torture. Redhammer has. And again, Redhammer did not rescue anyone. He just drove the boat because he had to. And the people I rescued needed rescuing in large part [/i[because] He had more of a choice when transporting the prisoners down there than he did when taking me.

Aight bud, it's obvious we're getting nowhere with this, I tried to explain.

[Caerbannog]

Originally posted by BadScientist:

They both disapprove of handing Redhammer over to the Waveservants. The guy was a mass murderer (or at the very least a mass manslaughterer) and knowingly facilitated the torture, imprisonment, and enslavement of countless people. Yet Wyll and Karlach want me to let him get away scot-free? I just don't understand that.

I was going to let him go, but after the Iron Throne underwater thing and we all got back to land, suddenly I heard dialogue (the game hadn't loaded yet) that was interrupted by something (game still wasn't loaded yet) and then I heard the YOU'RE IN COMBAT! sound and Redhammer was fighting us when the game screen finally loaded. So we killed him. But then I realized the Umberlee priestess was there (like, how did she find the submarine place??) and she rewarded us with a cool sexy robe that heals you every round if you're standing in water. Worth killing the Redhammer guy in the end.

[BadScientist]

Originally posted by Doomvora:

Originally posted by BadScientist:

Again, you're talking about things that aren't in the game. All we know about Umberlee in the game is that she's a sea goddess that gives 0 ♥♥♥♥♥ about human life. All we know about the priestesses is that they consider drowning to be a blessing. As far as we know, they haven't killed anyone. Redhammer has. They haven't facilitated enslavement and torture. Redhammer has. And again, Redhammer did not rescue anyone. He just drove the boat because he had to. And the people I rescued needed rescuing in large part [/i[because] He had more of a choice when transporting the prisoners down there than he did when taking me.

Aight bud, it's obvious we're getting nowhere with this, I tried to explain.

I understand what you're saying, but first, I don't think we should be asked to make decisions based on the larger Forgotten Realms lore that isn't included in the game, and second, I don't think who the Waveservants or their deity are is relevant to whether or not Redhammer deserves punishment. As I said earlier, yes it would be better to turn him over to an actual authority, but that isn't an option. Our options are to let a sociopath go free, or let him be executed by one of the groups he wronged.

[swbrandt]

My character killed him first, then drove the sub to rescue the prisoners herself. Got no disapproval from any companions (Karlach or Wyll included). So maybe just don't bother trying to intimidate/persuade him - or count yourself lucky if you fail the roll like I did.

Edit to add: My guess for why you got disapproval is because you persuaded him to help you, then turned on him. If you just go straight for it and treat him as an enemy all along, they don't have a problem.

[Rabbit]

Originally posted by Elfie:

Originally posted by BadScientist:

They both disapprove of handing Redhammer over to the Waveservants. The guy was a mass murderer (or at the very least a mass manslaughterer) and knowingly facilitated the torture, imprisonment, and enslavement of countless people. Yet Wyll and Karlach want me to let him get away scot-free? I just don't understand that.

Thaat confusion of yours is simply another proof that removing alignments was a mistake.

Why they disapprove of it because they Chaotic Good/Chaotic Neutral chracters. Chaotic Good characters seek to do things that seem good or right "at the moment", on a whim, not thinking ahead or into the big picture.

THIS is why D&D is moving away from it. Almost 50 years and people still don't understand it.

[snowyonetwo]

Really hated this. The Wavegirls are evil and Umbralee is blatantly evil; but the dwarf killed one of their own, has caused a ton of damage, facilitated a ton of horrible things even if he did his best to feign ignorance... but also helped to bring it all to an end willingly or unwillingly. It's like finding out that the mafia found a nazi sympathizer but they murdered him purely because he hit one of them with his car and he was just 'following orders'. I wish there was a way to ensure he got a proper trial or talk the wavesisters down or something cause either he gets off scott-free or murdered by an evil mob more intent on revenge-killing than anything.

[Nightlistic]

I would have to disagree about Karlach and Wyll being evil because if you do something really evil like kill the grove in Act 1 Wyll leaves your camp if you've recruited him, and Karlach will fight you because of it if you hadn't recruited her yet. They both have real issues with the player character harming the innocent.

[Ackranome]

Oh? What's this? Someone else sees how evil those two are?

[Cybrthief]

If my knowledge of Umberlee is correct, while she is an evil deity, most her worshippers aren’t evil and due so in fear of her causing terrible tides and turbulent waves at sea. It sounds like their worship is necessary in keeping major hurricanes from hitting the city.

[Wojtek the Bear]

Originally posted by BadScientist:

They both disapprove of handing Redhammer over to the Waveservants. The guy was a mass murderer (or at the very least a mass manslaughterer) and knowingly facilitated the torture, imprisonment, and enslavement of countless people. Yet Wyll and Karlach want me to let him get away scot-free? I just don't understand that.

Yeah but that Umberlee armor is dead sexy.