Subclasses Need More Variety

[Meaty Jackson]

I'm curious to see what everyone thinks about this topic, since I've seen it floating around various threads and forums.

Essentially, the game feels like it teeters somewhere between heavy roleplay (which is great) and specified optimization without class support or customization to justify some play styles over others mechanically with relationship to this role playing. It feels like you have to be willing to take subpar subclasses, or classes in general, if you want to experience the story a certain way. This may seem like an obvious point. However, I don't necessarily agree that you'd have to take a debuff or difficulty spike to play through what could essentially turn into a challenge run out the gate; the game hasn't uniformly balanced every play style for their respective class in ways which are engaging. I don't feel that the subclasses offer nearly enough to make one option much more thrilling or interesting as compared to the others. They're all somewhat uniform, and overlap in many ways. There is even some truth to this with certain classes in general, although they have already added some specificity with their more recent updates and additions.

This is by no means a new problem with CRPGs. With Pillars of Eternity or Pathfinder for comparison, there are many different fun and varied ways you can spec your character without directly sacrificing power for role playing capabilities. There obviously are classes which are best for Min/Maxing, although there are many ways to get there. While each role is different and has different utility, in those games they could each (generalizing here) form into their own over powered mold or offer fun and unique methods for engagement later on. However, this balancing didn't happen over night, and those games are quite different stylistically. I'm hoping Larian looks to expand in this department.

A good example of this issue in BG3 would be with the wizard subclasses. I'm playing as a necromancer, and the benefits to such a subclass are minimal when compared to evocation's friendly fire removal. Unlocking "discounted" memorizations is rather lackluster and can be abused with Withers if you're penny pinching. The utility from the other options again feel minimal, or better fitted to niche encounters. Is it a game ender for me? Absolutely not. Do I feel like a necromancer early on? Not really. This may be intentional, but it feels odd and removed from the role playing aspect pretty heavily. Wizards normally snowball, so it may be a tuning to the byproduct of the scaling.

Maybe some subclasses could offer new mechanics entirely. Make a smithing subclass which allows for certain weapon forging. There could be an alchemist subclass which allows for stronger, and more varied, potion development. If we're getting wild, we could make subclasses which are only unlockable by multiclassing (Pathfinder had some variations of this). This would require some homebrewing, but I think it would flesh out the game in a wonderful way.

Larian Studios has hit grand slams with their sandbox approach to combat and encounters, as seen with some of their options in BG3 and especially with their approaches to combat within Divinity Original Sin 2 Deluxe Edition. I'm really hoping they retune and expand these subclasses to make them feel more unique from their counterparts and/or they unlock specific trade offs which would separate them further from their companions. Even if they only added more dialogue options specific to these subclasses, I think that would be a win as well.

[ShadowDark3]

My thoughts here aren't exactly a hot take, but I think it's very much a 5e problem. Each class tends to have too many subclasses, so that regardless which class you're playing you are able to subclass into a particular playstyle. The problem stems from not all classes suiting all playstyles, but get pushed towards those styles with the subclasses. BG3 doesn't have every subclass, but the root problem is still there: classes/subclasses aren't specialised enough to feel truly unique or to put proper power where it needs to be.

Take Eldritch Knight. Super cool in theory, but the fighter as a base class isn't designed to be a caster. There is no reason to put points into INT, so if you spec into this subclass it just feels underwhelming. If you want to cast spells and wear armour, you would just play as a wizard and multiclass one level into Fighter. Personally, I think multiclassing is a holdover from older editions and should just be removed, and the subclass system improved.

In short, subclasses in 5e tend more towards a jack-of-all-trades sort of approach, rather than refining a class into a particular niche. It seems like WotC are attempting to fix this in the next edition (are they still calling it One D&D?) by having a more role-based approach to classes. It's looking a lot better in my eyes, at least in the early previews, although it's probably too late for it to be implemented in BG3.

That said, since BG3 is it's own game I think it's likely we will see a lot of improvements in balance and power tuning for underwhelming subclasses when the definitive edition eventually makes its way to us.

[michael199310]

5e problem. The customization in 5e ends after like 3rd level, since this is the level where most classes get their subclass at most. Compare that to Pathfinder, where there are no empty levels, where you select feats EVERY level, where every race has major abilities that can be selected and no two humans are the same...
BG3 improves a lot of poor aspects of 5e but even it cannot fix major problems with the system: blandness. 5e is a good entry level system for learning tabletop and decent enough to be translated to video games. But it is as good TTRPG, as McDonald's is a restaurant.

[Meaty Jackson]

You both make good points. I'm hoping they slowly mold it into their own rendition of 5e, given it is a video game and not an in person session with a DM capable of fleshing out weird on the fly mechanics or options. With this said, I'm not sure how much creative freedom they will be allotted. The subclass issue is at the peak of the pyramid for me - so to speak - in terms of combat approaches and stealth. I'm really hoping they add movement functionality related to environments such as grappling and rope functionality to climb high peaks. It's funny to me that teleportation, and long jumping, are the most obvious ways of crossing gaps and climbing towers. The lack of feats every level, compared to Pathfinder, is a major let down for me too. I'm hoping the empty levels get fleshed out with more subclass features. BG3 doesn't need to follow 5e to a T and be a state of the art McDonalds lol

[jonnin]

some classes need work (like wizard, where each one gets a microbuff hardly worth a mention) and others have huge variation (rogue, arcane tricks is very different from 2x offhand attacks, or warlock, where pact of the blade is rather different from pact of the tome). I feel that wizards and clerics and to an extent sorc got the short end of the stick on subclasses/domains/etc (I remember when you got your deity weapon, and useful spells like knock for trickster domain or a companion for animal domain etc). And druids... one of their subclasses just pulls in spells you were already going to get, like 1 level early. Nice, but hardly flavoring.

[Scheneighnay]

A lot of it like wizards is just a case of the game not really meshing with DnD mechanics.

On Wizards:

-the gold discount is more impactful in 5e because gold is more valuable there. Copper and silver coins exist in 5e to be a good low-level currency and to do things like buy food. Spell gold costs in BG3 are really too low relative to other costs in order for it to be impactful.

-there's also a time discount in 5e. Time is a resource completely non-existent in BG3 despite a lot of spells and actions being balanced around it in 5e

-many wizard subclass perks were changed for the game. Like in 5e, conjuration wizards can conjure small objects in the air, for problem-solving or a party trick. In game they can only cast create water for free.
Simpler mechanically but more boring.