Baldur's Gate 3

Baldur's Gate 3

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Maverick56 Aug 31, 2023 @ 10:08am
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BG3 isn't the GOTY
Before you head to comment something like "L take" or something let me explain.

BG3 was a good experience for me. I played through EA around 100 hours, and then I've put in another 100 since the full release. I've done two full play-throughs (Good and Bad as Durge)

I personally think I have gotten more out of this game then $60 worth and I consider this game to be good, if not great.

However...

This game has some very glaring issues, one of which is an issue with Larian themselves.

The main issue I have and the reason I don't think BG3 is GOTY worthy, is...the game just isn't finished.

And frankly, I'm not the only one who thinks that, most major streamers recently finished up their playthroughs, and "final thoughts" and many have come to the same conclusion I have.

Act 1 = Masterpiece worth of celebration.
Act 2 = A good experience with some interesting design, but slower and much more focused.
Act 3 = A buggy, unfinished, content cut, hellscape with some really cool moments sprinkled into the mix to warrant the cost of playing through it.
Ending = Piss poor and lazy.

This "spread" is unfortunately part of the "Larian issue" I mentioned above. This is not the first time Larian has done this kind of thing. In fact this isn't even the 2nd time.

Divinity Original Sin and it's sequel Divinity Original Sin 2 both suffered from poor 3rd Act/late game quality in both story and game-play, with DOS2 totally lacking an ending on launch.

Now those games have been "fixed" by each getting their own Definitive Editions which basically revamps most of the game, and adds some pretty bulky content that was absent in the original games.

This is a horrible practice, that I don't feel shouldn't be rewarded, let alone celebrated.

That all being said, I still think BG3 in it's current state (as of this post) is still a good game.

I just think that GOTY should be for Excellent Games, and for teams that didn't cut 30% of the end of their game to beat out Starfield's release.

8.3/10

(8.7 once they fix the bugs, 9+/10 if they actually add the content they cut)


EDIT 1:

For the literal sheep who think that "There is no cut content, that is a lie!"

Withers was meant to narrate the ending Epilogue...just one of many examples.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNhKgpYKJj4

This is a link to the assembled list of all known cuts via datamining.

https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/15z3jlb/a_list_of_all_cut_content_spoilers_nonplagiarized/
Last edited by Maverick56; Aug 31, 2023 @ 10:34am
Originally posted by Gregorovitch:
Originally posted by Maverick56:
Act 1 = Masterpiece worth of celebration.
Act 2 = A good experience with some interesting design, but slower and much more focused.
Act 3 = A buggy, unfinished, content cut, hellscape with some really cool moments sprinkled into the mix to warrant the cost of playing through it.
Ending = Piss poor and lazy.

This "spread" is unfortunately part of the "Larian issue" I mentioned above. This is not the first time Larian has done this kind of thing. In fact this isn't even the 2nd time.

You are correct about the relative quality of the three acts. Cohhcarnage in his final thoughts video rates Act 1 @ 100, Act 2 @90-95 and Act 3 @70-80. I think most folks agree with that assessment near enough. He still rates the overall game as the best he's ever played. I think most foolks would agree with that too. Act 3 might be bad compared to Act 1 but Act 1 is so unbelievably good that this is not exactly cutting criticism.

You are also correct that Larian have done this before. This is exactly what happened to both DOS1 and DOS2. There is a very simple explanation for this. Act 1 was in early access (same as DOS1 and DOS2). Millions (literally) of players spent hundreds of hours each (1000's in some cases) combing through every inch of it reporting every little thing they could find that was wrong or they thought could be improved. So it's ended up astonishingly good. What a surprise.

Acts 2 & 3 were not in EA. That's the difference. And it's not possible to get round that. No developer can. Essentially there are two and only two choices Larian could have made so that all three acts ended up around the same quality:

1. Don't do EA at all with any part of the game. That way it would have all ended up at about the same quality as Act 3 is now, albeit it would have been released somewhat sooner.

2. Put the whole game through EA. That way release would have been delayed a lot longer and by the time it was released everybody would already know every aspect of the story, the companions, the locations, the equipment, the whole lot. All of it. No surprises. No real reason to play it again.

The simple fact is that with a cRPG, which is an incredibly complex type of game to make, it is absolutely impossible to duplicate the enormous effect of thousands of real players playing it for millions of hours on the quality of the final product. Impossible.

So which option would YOU choose, @Maverick56?

Option 1 or option 2? Or on reflection and further consideration perhaps you will come round to the idea that Larian actually know exactly what they are doing and their development pipeline is as good as they can figure it could be, all things considered. Players would certainly seem to agree with that. Both DOS2 and BG3 sit at 95% odd +ve review scores which blows pretty much all other RPGs out of the water.

There is also a second big effect on players at work here that not many folks talk about. By the time players get to Act 3 they are tired, they want to finish the game already and they also want to be wowed by the end game content. This leads to disappointment when the end game content does not reach a climax that surpasses the early game content.

What Larian are going to do about that of course is exactly the same as what they did in DOS2. They will keep working on the end game content and eventually release a Definitive Edition. Then the game will be complete. Everything @100.
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Showing 316-330 of 366 comments
Originally posted by ChrisPharmD:

Nobody in history has ever said, "Man, this year in gaming has been amazing. There was one game remade. There was one game my dog's girlfriend has an Xbox and I messed around with two of the games. And all of the other games, I've seen or heard about."

Nobody literally ever said that. Except when they want to say BG3 is awesome.

Let's break it down.

BG3 > Diablo 4 Okay who cares

BG3 > AC6 Okay who cares

BG3 > The Entire Mass Effect Trilogy Definitely

BG3 > Lies of P Okay who cares

BG3 > Nintendo's entire game library from 1980 until now? Okay who cares

BG3 > Spiderman or God of War Ragnarok Okay who cares?

BG3 > Starfield Well, in terms of bugs, it has it beat. As far as quality, it has it beat. As far as both of them needing cars to get through the bullcrap? Both are equal. Top speed car hopefully will be DLC for both games.

Also, System Shock being perfect? But yet we're not playing it right now.

So anyway, we're not playing any of the crazy games that this year has given us. And also, none of us have been talking about what a damn good year this has been except when we want to say BG3 is GOTY. That's the only time we bring it up.

Genuinely curious as to what your point is. Not caring about something personally doesn't matter when the point of the discussion is something as unreliant on your own opinion as something's overall popularity. Especially when we can easily measure that metric with sales, reviews and overall player counts and retention. How many big budget/massively successful titles have to release in a year, even ones you personally don't care for, to acknowledge that its been a good year for games as a whole? 3? 4? 5?
ChrisPharmD Oct 4, 2023 @ 5:40pm 
Originally posted by Picklefather Nurgle:
Originally posted by ChrisPharmD:

Nobody in history has ever said, "Man, this year in gaming has been amazing. There was one game remade. There was one game my dog's girlfriend has an Xbox and I messed around with two of the games. And all of the other games, I've seen or heard about."

Nobody literally ever said that. Except when they want to say BG3 is awesome.

Let's break it down.

BG3 > Diablo 4 Okay who cares

BG3 > AC6 Okay who cares

BG3 > The Entire Mass Effect Trilogy Definitely

BG3 > Lies of P Okay who cares

BG3 > Nintendo's entire game library from 1980 until now? Okay who cares

BG3 > Spiderman or God of War Ragnarok Okay who cares?

BG3 > Starfield Well, in terms of bugs, it has it beat. As far as quality, it has it beat. As far as both of them needing cars to get through the bullcrap? Both are equal. Top speed car hopefully will be DLC for both games.

Also, System Shock being perfect? But yet we're not playing it right now.

So anyway, we're not playing any of the crazy games that this year has given us. And also, none of us have been talking about what a damn good year this has been except when we want to say BG3 is GOTY. That's the only time we bring it up.

Genuinely curious as to what your point is. Not caring about something personally doesn't matter when the point of the discussion is something as unreliant on your own opinion as something's overall popularity. Especially when we can easily measure that metric with sales, reviews and overall player counts and retention. How many big budget/massively successful titles have to release in a year, even ones you personally don't care for, to acknowledge that its been a good year for games as a whole? 3? 4? 5?

That you guys are saying this year is crazy while also saying BG3 is GOTY, which is artificially making it sound better than it is.

This year has sucked. This decade has SUCKED. And you guys are acting like BG3 is so good when gaming is so bad right now. That's not good for gaming or for US. For both you or me. It sucks for all of us.

Yet we're praising BG3 like it's competition is actually good.
ChrisPharmD Oct 4, 2023 @ 5:41pm 
Saying a remake is good is like saying, "The leftovers were really great from yesterday."
Originally posted by ChrisPharmD:
Also, System Shock being perfect? But yet we're not playing it right now.

So anyway, we're not playing any of the crazy games that this year has given us. And also, none of us have been talking about what a damn good year this has been except when we want to say BG3 is GOTY. That's the only time we bring it up.

I'm not playing System Shock right now because I played the game to death and I'm now waiting a bit. Not all games have to be infinitely replayable to be great. I assume based on what you've said that you assume a great game and a good year for gaming revolves having multiple games that are so good people ruin their lives over them and play them for months before finally dying of starvation or having the lights shut off. Sometimes a great game is played once and then never again, because by virtue of that particular game's nature and gameplay. Like Sekiro, for example. Even though it didn't release this year its a perfect example for what I'm saying. The game is amazing, 10/10.

You could see all of the possible endings in just 1 and a half runs (1 and a half because you can do the "true" ending after doing the "bad" ending by siding with Owl at the halfway point). Most people who get to the Owl ending will go "huh.... that was short." then look it up online and see that they ended the game prematurely halfway through, quickly get back to where they were and they do the real ending by getting the Guardian Dragon's tears and fighting reborn Ishin. And then, they never play it again, because their experience was so good that they feel totally fulfilled and satisfied with how their play of it turned out and they don't wanna risk tarnishing it with too many repeated playthroughs. In a few years, they return and play it through a few more times with the Boss-Rush mode they added and then shelve it again, but that doesn't make the game bad.
easytarget Oct 4, 2023 @ 5:42pm 
At the very least reexamine what the term GOTY even means. And in doing so tell us what your GOTY is then if not BG3?
Originally posted by ChrisPharmD:
That you guys are saying this year is crazy while also saying BG3 is GOTY, which is artificially making it sound better than it is.

This year has sucked. This decade has SUCKED. And you guys are acting like BG3 is so good when gaming is so bad right now. That's not good for gaming or for US. For both you or me. It sucks for all of us.

Yet we're praising BG3 like it's competition is actually good.

And there we get to the heart of the issue. You're upset, angry at the world and bringing all your personal baggage and misanthropy into the forums in order to spew venom at people and make yourself feel better.

Not judging, though. That's a perfectly valid way to let off steam in this day and age. Go wild, brother. Hope you feel better soon, life's not all that bad.
Originally posted by ChrisPharmD:
Saying a remake is good is like saying, "The leftovers were really great from yesterday."

Do you have a point? What if they were good? There a problem with leftovers?
ChrisPharmD Oct 4, 2023 @ 5:43pm 
Originally posted by Picklefather Nurgle:
Originally posted by ChrisPharmD:
Also, System Shock being perfect? But yet we're not playing it right now.

So anyway, we're not playing any of the crazy games that this year has given us. And also, none of us have been talking about what a damn good year this has been except when we want to say BG3 is GOTY. That's the only time we bring it up.

I'm not playing System Shock right now because I played the game to death and I'm now waiting a bit. Not all games have to be infinitely replayable to be great. I assume based on what you've said that you assume a great game and a good year for gaming revolves having multiple games that are so good people ruin their lives over them and play them for months before finally dying of starvation or having the lights shut off. Sometimes a great game is played once and then never again, because by virtue of that particular game's nature and gameplay. Like Sekiro, for example. Even though it didn't release this year its a perfect example for what I'm saying. The game is amazing, 10/10.

You could see all of the possible endings in just 1 and a half runs (1 and a half because you can do the "true" ending after doing the "bad" ending by siding with Owl at the halfway point). Most people who get to the Owl ending will go "huh.... that was short." then look it up online and see that they ended the game prematurely halfway through, quickly get back to where they were and they do the real ending by getting the Guardian Dragon's tears and fighting reborn Ishin. And then, they never play it again, because their experience was so good that they feel totally fulfilled and satisfied with how their play of it turned out and they don't wanna risk tarnishing it with too many repeated playthroughs. In a few years, they return and play it through a few more times with the Boss-Rush mode they added and then shelve it again, but that doesn't make the game bad.

Nice strawman. I'm not engaging with this level of dishonesty if that's how you're going to interpret what I'm saying.

We're done here, and your opinion can be your own. I mean, after all, you like Ass Effect.
I'll go ahead and translate what he really means, ahem:

Originally posted by ChrisPharmD:
I'm not a smart or good enough troll to actually continue this debate. I am now going to throw out buzzwords and go yell at someone else to get my jollies. Good day, ladies and gentlemen.
easytarget Oct 4, 2023 @ 5:46pm 
I said good day sir.
SoloQ Oct 4, 2023 @ 6:04pm 
You're putting too much stock into the idea of a "game of the year." Who cares? Will it make you feel better if you played the game that was picked? I don't get it.
As long as you enjoyed a game why does it matter what awards it wins?
Originally posted by Zulaika:
I'm not saying they can't be wowed. I said their opinion on what makes a good CRPG can be safely ignored due to their ignorance. Because they have no idea what makes a *bad* CPRG either. I didn't say the entire roleplaying genre. I said the genre BG3 actually is. It's the same reason why you want an actual lawyer's opinion on legal matters and not the legal assistant or student's opinion.

Popularity

You can't safely ignore millions of people just because they don't have what you consider enough knowledge and experience in order to give an opinion on something. The masses aren't the best at articulating and providing detailed information, but simple things like "good", "bad", "yes" and "no" are very easy things to get out of them.

The developers said that they pretty much worked themselves to death on this passion project of theirs, and that after this game they're gonna make far more small-scale projects, focus on their Divinity IP and (possibly) reduce the size of the dev-team. Yes, every modern CRPG attempts to give you branching paths that alter the storyline in meaningful or interesting ways, but to say that BG3 isn't exceptional in the sheer amount of things it allows you to do is disingenuous.

Call of Duty is not comparable here. Call of Duty is a series that is copy-pasted year after year with little-to-no innovation because its managed to capture a dedicated audience via perfecting a gameplay loop and formula that all but gets people addicted to their games. BG3 is not that in any way, shape or form. The only thing that is even remotely similar to previous games is the engine. Almost every other aspect of the game has been meaningfully (meaning extensively here) tweaked from the past Divinity games in an attempt to make something fresh and new.

You can't call me out about making an appeal to popularity when the entire basis of this particular discussion is whether or not this game will win a Popularity Contest like "Game of the Year." That "nuh-uh" was also not sent to you, and it wasn't in any way related to anything that was an actual critique. Someone was trolling me so I trolled them back. If you can't disassociate yourself from that other person I honestly don't know what advice I could give you to fix that. Edit - And if that was you, then what I said stands, aside from it not being related to you, of course. I respond to like with like.

The Tadpole

The "only" consequence of slurping down the tadpoles, a major narrative choice, is just turning ugly? Are you serious? Did you miss the part where the vast majority of your party members except Astarion massively dissaprove and lose opinion of you? Did you miss the part where some of them require DC 20 checks in order to then persuade them to change their minds? Did you miss the part where it massively alters the narratives ending and even allows you to straight up commit sepuku at the end of the game if you don't wanna live the rest of your life as a Squidward? Consequence doesn't just entail the game directly punishing you. "You ate the tadpole, here's a bunch of penalties" is not good writing. Having the focus be on the interplay between you and your party members and the overall reactions of those around you while also allowing the narrative to continue to its inevitble conclusion (like all PC and tabletop games have) isn't a black mark against the game.

Gods and Alignment

As for the alignment thing, I think you're a little misguided. Just because an entire race is Lawful Evil in the lore does not mean that individuals can't be something else. Drizt do Urden is a massively popular character because he's a well-written "good" Drow who broke the conditioning from his extremely abusive, manipulative and controlling matriarchal society. A good-aligned elven deity, or any deity for that matter, would happily accept him as a worshipper, because he's a good person. His past and where he grew up would just make him an even better success story that Corellon and his pantheon could wave around in Lolth's face to get back at her for what she did to the Dark Elves. "Look at this, Arushnae! Despite your attempts to pervert the drow, good and honest souls continue to find their way back into the fold of the Seldarine pantheon."

Just because the Guardian requires you to do something to save yourself and give you a better chance at survival isn't an inherently selfish act. Very few gods in D&D, aside from Helm and Tyr, would actually approve of actively choosing to die and leave power off the table. And even for Helm and Tyr, they would only disapprove if your actions violated their laws and divine mandates. Helm wants his paladins and clergy to be humble and seek no personal glory, nor to enrich themselves, but he certainly wants them to live and accrue as much personal power as they can, provided they excercise that power in a just and humble fashion while carrying out their duties to the best of their ability.

Tyr would also only care if you used that power in corrupt ways or if the specific nation you're in has laws against using mental magics against another person. I'm pretty sure Baldur's Gate doesn't interact with Mindflayers enough to have a charter on whether or not its acceptable to use psychic abilities to commit good deeds that don't hurt anyone else.

The only god who might be genuinely discouraging of their followers being powerful and doing what's necessary to survive is maybe Umberlee. Its divine law in her church that you never become famous or develop an overly high-profile reputation, lest you take the spotlight off of her. Only she would punish you for doing something that glorified yourself or helped you stay alive. And even then she would only do so after the fact, if enough people heard about what you did and she got jealous. She also certainly wouldn't be averse to you doing something "good" so long as it served her aims.

The Gods aren't mindless automatons, dude. You're applying the alignment system incorrectly and you're applying the lore of the gods incorrectly.

The Hag

Again, with the hag, that's a good thing. Did you forget the part where her former henchmen, if you beat her without killing them, say that they don't even know if she can die? Did you miss the part of her dialogue in Act 3 where she blatantly says you're not the first person to kill her, and she always comes back? She's an evil fae witch with access to some of the oldest and most immoral magics to ever exist in the setting. Cheating death, especially when Resurrection scrolls exist in the setting, along with priests that literally have a resurrection service, isn't that far-fetched.

She also very much does despise you for what you did to her, but she's also pregnant and, despite being a Hag, very much does care for her child. Even crocodiles and other vastly anti-social animals have parental instincts, so why is it so impossible to understand that a Hag, when pregnant and backed into a corner by a powerful adventurer she knows she can't beat, but that she knows can't kill her, would just ask you to walk away in exchange for not holding a grudge? She's desperate and trying to give you an out that doesn't lead to further confrontation. Letting the player decide whether they accept is a good thing.

Nitpicking

How exactly am I the one nitpicking when you're saying there's both not enough choice and complaining about how in this one specific interaction, that you brought up, there's more than one way to resolve the Hag's quest? I'm not nitpicking, you're just incapable of actually refuting what I'm saying.
Last edited by Picklefather Nurgle; Oct 4, 2023 @ 6:38pm
Originally posted by SoloQ:
You're putting too much stock into the idea of a "game of the year." Who cares? Will it make you feel better if you played the game that was picked? I don't get it.
As long as you enjoyed a game why does it matter what awards it wins?

True. People need to stop basing their identities around games. Like a game or don't like it, but don't try to force other people to agree one way or the other because you need your opinion validated by strangers.
Mithrandir Oct 4, 2023 @ 7:16pm 
The GOTY subjectivity in all its splendor.

Those who preferred that game this year will vote for it. Those who didn't won't. It's as it should be. And all the threads on the "interweb" won't change that fact.

The GOTY is pure subjectivity as it's decided on an individual preferences basis and if someone enjoyed (or not) a game more than another isn't open for debate.

Btw, I like chocolate, if you have that much time and energy to lose, OP, try to convince me I don't or I may vote it for the taste of the year award.

(edit : Typo)
Last edited by Mithrandir; Oct 4, 2023 @ 7:26pm
Originally posted by Mithrandir:
The GOTY subjectivity in all its spendor.

Those who preferred that game this year will vote for it. Those who didn't won't. It's as it should be. And all the threads on the "interweb" won't change that fact.

The GOTY is pure subjectivity as it's decided on an individual preferences basis and if someone enjoyed (or not) a game more than another isn't open for debate.

Btw, I like chocolate, if you have that much time and energy to lose, OP, try to convince me I don't or I may vote it for the taste of the year award.

I envy you.

I'm a blowhard that likes to write out massive walls of text to get my points across: you made the same points with one and a half paragraphs, lol.
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Date Posted: Aug 31, 2023 @ 10:08am
Posts: 366