(Spoilers) The Heart of the Gate post-reaction

[Caerbannog]

Well that was depressing. All that build-up from Duke Ravenguard and Wyll, finding the doorway, doing the puzzles, listening to old Balduran's magic mouth recordings, until you finally find the "wyrm" and poof! He dead. Oh, no make that DOUBLE DEAD.

Balduran as the Emperor was supposed to be this huge lore drop but... it just seemed anti-climatic to me. The last spark of Ansur, wasted in a stupid fight.

[Aouregan]

Originally posted by Caerbannog:

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

I will quote it again, from what is official D&D rule works:

Monstrous Arcana: The Illithiad, p.11:
"Ceremorphosis completely replaces the original tissue of the victim with illithid tissue; when the transformation is complete, the original victim is dead. Cure disease, remove curse, raise dead, restoration, resurrection, and / or similar spells cannot reverse this process."

The emperor cannot be Balduran. Balduran is dead. The mindlfayer that emerged is its own creature with own personality.

Withers says mindflayers do not have souls. So what happened to the soul of the person when the tadpole completed the process?

Does the elder brain, where the tadpole spawned from, have your soul? Did it go to an illithid eldritch god that doesn't conform to normal 'by AO' pantheon rules?

Your soul goes to the fugue plane. The Illithid is not you... your soul is not bound to it in any way. Let the Illithids be soulless, what do you care :) Your body was 100% destroyed. Again: The Illithid is no longer you. It's a completely different being. You are dead.
Compare it more to a chestburster alien than some random cosmetic change of your body. You are out and have no more say there.
You don't even have a body you can be resurrected to, which makes it so hard to fix:
"Ceremorphosis completely replaces the original tissue of the victim with illithid tissue..."

[Zackerie]

There's 3 other dragons in baldur's gate that we never meet in game, but in lore they are there. yes, it is super easy for dragons to hide among people.

[Mizu]

Originally posted by Caerbannog:

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

I will quote it again, from what is official D&D rule works:

Monstrous Arcana: The Illithiad, p.11:
"Ceremorphosis completely replaces the original tissue of the victim with illithid tissue; when the transformation is complete, the original victim is dead. Cure disease, remove curse, raise dead, restoration, resurrection, and / or similar spells cannot reverse this process."

The emperor cannot be Balduran. Balduran is dead. The mindlfayer that emerged is its own creature with own personality.

Withers says mindflayers do not have souls. So what happened to the soul of the person when the tadpole completed the process?

Does the elder brain, where the tadpole spawned from, have your soul? Did it go to an illithid eldritch god that doesn't conform to normal 'by AO' pantheon rules?

All we know for 100% certain is that the soul of the victim is placed into a state that stops them from responding to attempts to bring them back to life with resurrection spells but isn't beyond the reach of gods to retrieve if they are willing to make an unknown amount of effort. This may or may not involve the soul being in a state most people would describe as 'destroyed' or it may instead be that the soul is simply 'bound' to something somewhere.

[Aouregan]

Originally posted by dcalebh:

Originally posted by Caerbannog:

Withers says mindflayers do not have souls. So what happened to the soul of the person when the tadpole completed the process?

Does the elder brain, where the tadpole spawned from, have your soul? Did it go to an illithid eldritch god that doesn't conform to normal 'by AO' pantheon rules?

All we know for 100% certain is that the soul of the victim is placed into a state that stops them from responding to attempts to bring them back to life with resurrection spells but isn't beyond the reach of gods to retrieve if they are willing to make an unknown amount of effort. This may or may not involve the soul being in a state most people would describe as 'destroyed' or it may instead be that the soul is simply 'bound' to something somewhere.

Most resurrection spells in D&D require the body, unless you use True Resurrection or miracle, wish, divine intervention, etc.
But your body was replaced by Illithid tissue. It's gone. So yes, you cannot be simply resurrected.
Read this again:

"Ceremorphosis completely replaces the original tissue of the victim with illithid tissue; when the transformation is complete, the original victim is dead. Cure disease, remove curse, raise dead, restoration, resurrection, and / or similar spells cannot reverse this process."

Your soul literally has no body to return to.

[Recjawjind]

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

Most resurrection spells in D&D require the body, unless you use True Resurrection or miracle, wish, divine intervention, etc.
But your body was replaced by Illithid tissue. It's gone. So yes, you cannot be simply resurrected.

The lowest level spell that works would be reincarnate. Although that requires some amount of material from the original persons body

[Aouregan]

Originally posted by Recjawjind:

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

Most resurrection spells in D&D require the body, unless you use True Resurrection or miracle, wish, divine intervention, etc.
But your body was replaced by Illithid tissue. It's gone. So yes, you cannot be simply resurrected.

The lowest level spell that works would be reincarnate. Although that requires some amount of material from the original persons body

Which you do not have. The whole body is replaced. You have nothing.

[I'm A Distraction!]

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

Originally posted by I'm A Distraction!:

Except allowing Ceremorposis to complete would have caused his friend's soul to be devoured, a fate worse than death. To say nothing of the pain of having your succulent brain meats slurped on by a bloating worm as it plugs itself into your skull instead.

That is a bit up to debate, cause souls from mindflayer victims can still end up in the fugue plane, like any other dead. A miracle or wish, or Divine intervention, can even revert the process.

The fact that you HAVE to use a miracle or wish, or divine intervention further leads credence to it. If their soul was in the outer planes, a true resurrection would be enough to raise someone who had been turned into a Mind Flayer since you'd only need their name to bring them back to life if their soul exists and is free. The fact that outright universe hacking is required to revive indicates something has gone horribly wrong with the soul, and since the thing is devouring the rest of you as it happens...

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

[Your soul goes to the fugue plane. The Illithid is not you... your soul is not bound to it in any way. Let the Illithids be soulless, what do you care :) Your body was 100% destroyed. Again: The Illithid is no longer you. It's a completely different being. You are dead.
Compare it more to a chestburster alien than some random cosmetic change of your body. You are out and have no more say there.
You don't even have a body you can be resurrected to, which makes it so hard to fix:
"Ceremorphosis completely replaces the original tissue of the victim with illithid tissue..."

At the very least in the context of BG3 (and some speculative evidence from the rest of the DnD canon) the mortal's soul is outright lost, which is why Jergal gives the dressing down at the game's epilogue. By 'losing' the souls of thousands of mortals, the Dead Three have royally screwed up and pissed off the gods (implied that their remaining divinity will be stripped from them as a consequence). If their souls were just sent on their merry way, the Absolute wouldn't be the grand threat the gods consider it to be, just another big bad gracing Faerun - that happens every other week.

[Mizu]

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

Originally posted by dcalebh:

All we know for 100% certain is that the soul of the victim is placed into a state that stops them from responding to attempts to bring them back to life with resurrection spells but isn't beyond the reach of gods to retrieve if they are willing to make an unknown amount of effort. This may or may not involve the soul being in a state most people would describe as 'destroyed' or it may instead be that the soul is simply 'bound' to something somewhere.

Most resurrection spells in D&D require the body, unless you use True Resurrection or miracle, wish, divine intervention, etc.
But your body was replaced by Illithid tissue. It's gone.

Yes, but true resurrection doesn't need the body and it still fails to work also. And its only relevant possible point of failure is if the soul of the target is either unwilling or unable to respond to the attempt.

[Aouregan]

Originally posted by I'm A Distraction!:

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

That is a bit up to debate, cause souls from mindflayer victims can still end up in the fugue plane, like any other dead. A miracle or wish, or Divine intervention, can even revert the process.

The fact that you HAVE to use a miracle or wish, or divine intervention further leads credence to it. If their soul was in the outer planes, a true resurrection would be enough to raise someone who had been turned into a Mind Flayer since you'd only need their name to bring them back to life if their soul exists and is free. The fact that outright universe hacking is required to revive indicates something has gone horribly wrong with the soul, and since the thing is devouring the rest of you as it happens...

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

[Your soul goes to the fugue plane. The Illithid is not you... your soul is not bound to it in any way. Let the Illithids be soulless, what do you care :) Your body was 100% destroyed. Again: The Illithid is no longer you. It's a completely different being. You are dead.
Compare it more to a chestburster alien than some random cosmetic change of your body. You are out and have no more say there.
You don't even have a body you can be resurrected to, which makes it so hard to fix:
"Ceremorphosis completely replaces the original tissue of the victim with illithid tissue..."

At the very least in the context of BG3 (and some speculative evidence from the rest of the DnD canon) the mortal's soul is outright lost, which is why Jergal gives the dressing down at the game's epilogue. By 'losing' the souls of thousands of mortals, the Dead Three have royally screwed up and pissed off the gods (implied that their remaining divinity will be stripped from them as a consequence). If their souls were just sent on their merry way, the Absolute wouldn't be the grand thread the gods consider it to be, just another big bad gracing Faerun - that happens every other week.

In BG3 that holds true, but not for the rest of DnD. Wish can very well bring someone back, as can miracle or divine intervention.
Yes, Souls can be destroyed by Ceremorphosis, but we have no real indication if ti happens all the time, when it happens, or how often.
I do not trust Larion;s epilogue more than 30 years of playing DnD.

[Aouregan]

Originally posted by dcalebh:

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

Most resurrection spells in D&D require the body, unless you use True Resurrection or miracle, wish, divine intervention, etc.
But your body was replaced by Illithid tissue. It's gone.

Yes, but true resurrection doesn't need the body and it still fails to work also. And its only relevant possible point of failure is if the soul of the target is either unwilling or unable to respond to the attempt.

Originally posted by dcalebh:

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

Most resurrection spells in D&D require the body, unless you use True Resurrection or miracle, wish, divine intervention, etc.
But your body was replaced by Illithid tissue. It's gone.

Yes, but true resurrection doesn't need the body and it still fails to work also. And its only relevant possible point of failure is if the soul of the target is either unwilling or unable to respond to the attempt.

I have no indication that a true resurrection won't work. I mean, we are getting in really high level areas now with that. I found no source saying that a true res will not work.
What I have is this
"Cure disease, remove curse, raise dead, restoration, resurrection, and / or similar spells cannot reverse this process."

[Caerbannog]

Originally posted by dcalebh:

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

So now we have a mindflayer who is still Balduran, despite a Ceremorphosis killing the host and destroying your personality?

So far as I can tell from scenes I have seen, what we have is actually a mindflayer who lied to Ansur about still being Balduran as a means of manipulating them. If you keep refusing to believe them they eventually give you a scene where they get tired of keeping up the act for someone who isn't buying it and admit their 'friendly mindflayer who acts like they still have emotions' front was all an attempt to make manipulating you easier.

https://youtu.be/mbBs1b7g-6Y

Oh wow, I missed getting that scene. Duke Stelmane was inadvertently saved by Gortash of all people, only to be killed later by Orin's murder goons.

Also, an aside, i've never played a dragonborn before. just realized how silly their expressions can be.

[Recjawjind]

One thing I'd like to bring up about the whole "retaining memories and personality" trough ceremorphosis, there is actually a basis for this.
IDRotF p303
Gnome Ceremorphs

Though, it is just gnomes this is described as happening to, but it's not *that* much of a stretch to say it's possible but rare in other races.

[Aouregan]

Anyhow, if even tru res would not work, that even more says that BG3 is full of sh*t, no?
I mean, Balduran is apparently still Balduran, you, or whoever you choose as the ultimate Illithid is still you...?
Funnily enough they hand you a Divine Intervention, without thinking about it, or properly implementing it.

[Aouregan]

Originally posted by Recjawjind:

One thing I'd like to bring up about the whole "retaining memories and personality" trough ceremorphosis, there is actually a basis for this.
IDRotF p303
Gnome Ceremorphs

Though, it is just gnomes this is described as happening to, but it's not *that* much of a stretch to say it's possible but rare in other races.

There is a substance you can swallow as a humanoid... before ceremorphosis happens, but the success rate is abysmal. I cannot remember the name of the substance, tbh. I would need to look it up. And it is still not really "you". Parts are retained in the new mindflayer. It is not you. Whoever you were, is gone.

[Caerbannog]

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

Your soul goes to the fugue plane. The Illithid is not you... your soul is not bound to it in any way. Let the Illithids be soulless, what do you care :) Your body was 100% destroyed. Again: The Illithid is no longer you. It's a completely different being. You are dead.
Compare it more to a chestburster alien than some random cosmetic change of your body. You are out and have no more say there.
You don't even have a body you can be resurrected to, which makes it so hard to fix:
"Ceremorphosis completely replaces the original tissue of the victim with illithid tissue..."

But I recall something in game saying that no one knows where your soul goes when you turn into a mindflayer, which is why its such a disaster for the gods to lose all those souls if Gale pops at the elder brain scene and suddenly millions of people are mindflayers.

Maybe I'm not remembering something right.