(Spoilers) The Heart of the Gate post-reaction

[Caerbannog]

Well that was depressing. All that build-up from Duke Ravenguard and Wyll, finding the doorway, doing the puzzles, listening to old Balduran's magic mouth recordings, until you finally find the "wyrm" and poof! He dead. Oh, no make that DOUBLE DEAD.

Balduran as the Emperor was supposed to be this huge lore drop but... it just seemed anti-climatic to me. The last spark of Ansur, wasted in a stupid fight.

[Shyba]

Balduran as the emperor also doesn't make SENSE.
Balduran disappeared over 300 years ago and was human.
Moonrise towers and the surrounding City were built 150~ years ago by Ketheric BEFORE he lost it.

so either Balduran the legendary Explorer just wanted to rob a temple in a town full of peopleor he wasn't going to moonrise pre shadowcurse...

which means he has been ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ around for at least 200 years and no one has seen him, till he decided HEY LETS GO CHECK OUT THAT SUPER CURSED PLACE and found mindflayers.

now if it was "I heard of treasures in the underdark" or something then sure ok fine you've been there for around 300 years or w/e. but he SPECIFICALLY said Moonrise towers... which didn't exist when he vanished and was a full TOWN of people until 100 years ago.

but that's just awkward writing.. since Ansur clearly states he IS Balduran... when realistically he shouldn't be :x

[Mizu]

Originally posted by Shyba:

Balduran as the emperor also doesn't make SENSE.
Balduran disappeared over 300 years ago and was human.
Moonrise towers and the surrounding City were built 150~ years ago by Ketheric BEFORE he lost it.

so either Balduran the legendary Explorer just wanted to rob a temple in a town full of peopleor he wasn't going to moonrise pre shadowcurse...

which means he has been ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ around for at least 200 years and no one has seen him, till he decided HEY LETS GO CHECK OUT THAT SUPER CURSED PLACE and found mindflayers.

now if it was "I heard of treasures in the underdark" or something then sure ok fine you've been there for around 300 years or w/e. but he SPECIFICALLY said Moonrise towers... which didn't exist when he vanished and was a full TOWN of people until 100 years ago.

He did say he was too embarrassed to show his face in public after the failure of his expedition. Though turning into a shut in for something like a hundred years before shaking out of his funk to go hunt a treasure under Moonrise after it fell into the Shadowcurse is definitely very awkward.

[I'm A Distraction!]

I think Balduran disappeared 500-1000 years ago, irrc, which is quite impressive considering that Mind Flayers only live for 120-135 years.

Its more than likely that Balduran 'heard some rumors about potential treasure' there before Moonrise was constructed, more than likely spread purposefully by the MINDFLAYER COLONY underneath. How NO ONE living there apparently knew there was a significant number of mind flayers living right beneath them, though, is a mystery.

Makes me wonder if, considering the issues with Isobel's death, Halsin's cut relation to it (and his interest in Mind Flayers before discovering the tadpole), and the original purpose of Moonrise, might have been in relation to that colony. Maybe Moonrise was constructed when Ketheric was still loyal to serve as a bastion against Mind Flayer raids. Perhaps Halsin and Isobel were part of a party to try and investigate and deal with them, only for Isobel to be captured and turned into a Mind Flayer (thus preventing resurrection)? But that's all speculative that might not be earned, as there's none of the hostility you'd expect Ketheric to have for Mind Flayers if they were what was responsible for killing Isobel.

[Shyba]

Originally posted by I'm A Distraction!:

I think Balduran disappeared 500-1000 years ago, irrc, which is quite impressive considering that Mind Flayers only live for 120-135 years.

Its more than likely that Balduran 'heard some rumors about potential treasure' there before Moonrise was constructed, more than likely spread purposefully by the MINDFLAYER COLONY underneath. How NO ONE living there apparently knew there was a significant number of mind flayers living right beneath them, though, is a mystery.

Makes me wonder if, considering the issues with Isobel's death, Halsin's cut relation to it (and his interest in Mind Flayers before discovering the tadpole), and the original purpose of Moonrise, might have been in relation to that colony. Maybe Moonrise was constructed when Ketheric was still loyal to serve as a bastion against Mind Flayer raids. Perhaps Halsin and Isobel were part of a party to try and investigate and deal with them, only for Isobel to be captured and turned into a Mind Flayer (thus preventing resurrection)? But that's all speculative that might not be earned, as there's none of the hostility you'd expect Ketheric to have for Mind Flayers if they were what was responsible for killing Isobel.

you are correct it was 500 not 300... idk why my brain went 1492 -1000 = 300 YUP THAT MATHS GUD.
and apparently Balduran is now an Elf not a human?.. so that at least explains his immortality but ok...
but really hte timeline doesn't add up anyways. Ansur would have needed to die after Baldurs gate was founded or the legend doesn't exist. the emperor didn't show up till around 14 years ago so Ansur died sometime after that (because Emperor and Ansur travelled together looking for a cure for a while) and then he just stuck his buddies corpse back under the city? like.. dude were you expecting him to HELP the city you founded.. after murdering him?

SO even if Balduran was missing for centuries.. Ansur was not he clearly was looking for Balduran (Since he ya know.. rescued him) so was he just being SUPER STEALTH DRAGON?? and no one noticed him for the past 500ish years? dragons are .. kind of hard to miss even if they can shapeshift... especially ones that are looking for information on LEGENDARY EXPLORERS someone HAD to hear rumors. but that's irrelevant i guess.

So Ansur magically finds Balduran and frees him.. despite no way to know he WAS balduran(unless he free'd him pre cermorphosis?? which.. makes the entire thing even more illogical since again.. Balduran vanished 500 years ago... and Emperor showed up 14...so seriously where the hell has he been? did you seriously get THAT depressed after one trip failed AFTER YOU JUST FOUNDED AN ENTIRE CITY WITH YOUR ENORMOUS WEALTH!? that you just... sulked for 350-400~ years until you went HEY LETS GO RAID MOONRISE?? lol...

ANYTHING else would have worked... ANYTHING but him being Balduran. hell if you told me he wasn't Balduran and he was just lying i'd believe you... except Ansur absolutely believes he is and we have no reason to NOT believe him(why would he lie about that when Emperor hadn't told us that info himself yet)

my headcanon is just Ansur free'd some random mindflayer and was all.. HEYBUDDY IS THAT YOU BALDURAN? and the newly free'd emperor went.. "uh yeah sure im Balduran all right what's up.. uhh.. i forget your name... squid brain and stuff so memory problems...." and he jsut kept pretending from there since it's a nice cover story because who wouldn't trust the great Balduran! (except people who actually look closer to his story...)

[Mizu]

So, it seems we have 3 options.

1: The Emperor is lying about being Balduran (seems unlikely given the fact Ansur backs him up).

2: The writers really messed up the timeline and nobody caught it in proofreading and editing.

3: WotC has decided to actively retcon the lore surrounding the Balduran.


Given he has also been changed from a human into an elf I am leaning towards option 3.

[Shyba]

Originally posted by dcalebh:

So, it seems we have 3 options.

1: The Emperor is lying about being Balduran (seems unlikely given the fact Ansur backs him up).

2: The writers really messed up the timeline and nobody caught it in proofreading and editing.

3: WotC has decided to actively retcon the lore surrounding the Balduran.


Given he has also been changed from a human into an elf I am leaning towards option 3.

it's most likely 3 yeah... just leaves that big glaring hole of where the hell was he for 400 years lol
but i mean.. Human to Elf is the only way to make this situation WORK (and from what i can tell that's a BG3 change... i can't find anything ELSE that backs that up) so it could also be 2 :x

[Mizu]

Originally posted by Shyba:

Originally posted by dcalebh:

So, it seems we have 3 options.

1: The Emperor is lying about being Balduran (seems unlikely given the fact Ansur backs him up).

2: The writers really messed up the timeline and nobody caught it in proofreading and editing.

3: WotC has decided to actively retcon the lore surrounding the Balduran.


Given he has also been changed from a human into an elf I am leaning towards option 3.

it's most likely 3 yeah... just leaves that big glaring hole of where the hell was he for 400 years lol
but i mean.. Human to Elf is the only way to make this situation WORK (and from what i can tell that's a BG3 change... i can't find anything ELSE that backs that up) so it could also be 2 :x

What I actually meant to get at is that maybe WotC is retconning how long ago he disappeared so that in new canon there isn't an egregious centuries long gap of 'where the hell were they then'.

[Shyba]

Originally posted by dcalebh:

Originally posted by Shyba:

it's most likely 3 yeah... just leaves that big glaring hole of where the hell was he for 400 years lol
but i mean.. Human to Elf is the only way to make this situation WORK (and from what i can tell that's a BG3 change... i can't find anything ELSE that backs that up) so it could also be 2 :x

What I actually meant to get at is that maybe WotC is retconning how long ago he disappeared so that in new canon there isn't an egregious centuries long gap of 'where the hell were they then'.

yeah maybe, but again the Elf thing only seems to be a BG3 thing so idk would need to have something else relevant to Balduran to actually confirm or deny that either way.

like they had no real REASON to make him Balduran anyway like it doesn't make him trustworthy.. it's a reveal in a sidequest at the very end of the game you might not even SEE. it's hidden dialog that retcons... a legend of a guy who was missing 500 years ago.. like.. just why? doesn't seem like it's a good retcon unless it's going to be used somewhere more impactful =/

It's also the ONE plot twist I didn't see coming a mile away in like the past 15 years.. so maybe i just don't like it for that reason lmao.. idk D:

[Caerbannog]

So basically Balduran's story has been retconned for BG3?

I seem to (distantly) recall that in the original BG expansion, Balduran's ship had crashed at that shapeshifter island and all the shapeshifters there were descendants from Balduran/Balduran's crew, something your character learns about. It's been so long since I played it I can't remember exactly what happened, though.

So for BG3, he escaped from shapeshifter island, finally made his way home to his city and Ansur, found out a bunch of stuff happened while he was away, and decided he'd head to moonrise tower to get his groove back, only to find himself in the underdark where the elder brain slept and he got himself tadpoled.

Except now he says Ansur was the one who saved him (the image showed Balduran as an illithid, and then later he was arguing with Ansur as a humanoid).

The Emperor is definitely an unreliable and inconsistent narrator.

[Aouregan]

There is also one additional problem:

If someone turns into a mindflayer (which probably is not the correct wording), according to D&D lore they are dead and a new mindflayer entity is born (which, to no surprise, is not you, but a completely different being).
The process is so irreversible that only "Wish" or a "Miracle" can help at that point.
So any way you turn it, Balduran is long dead and the mindflayer is lying, probably by using Balduran's memories, at least in a proper D&D universe. It is also the same reason why you doom anyone you pick for the mindflayer in the end to certain death.So, no saving Karlach by letting her become a mindflayer

Monstrous Arcana: The Illithiad, p.11:
"Ceremorphosis completely replaces the original tissue of the victim with illithid tissue; when the transformation is complete, the original victim is dead. Cure disease, remove curse, raise dead, restoration, resurrection, and / or similar spells cannot reverse this process."

[Shyba]

Originally posted by Kaeptn Bleibaer:

There is also one additional problem:

If someone turns into a mindflayer (which probably is not the correct wording), according to D&D lore they are dead and a new mindflayer entity is born (which, to no surprise, is not you, but a completely different being).
The process is so irreversible that only "Wish" or a "Miracle" can help at that point.
So any way you turn it, Balduran is long dead and the mindflayer is lying, at least in a proper D&D universe. It is also the same reason why you doom anyone you pick for the mindflayer in the end to certain death.So, no saving Karlach by letting her become a mindflayer

Monstrous Arcana: The Illithiad, p.11:
"Ceremorphosis completely replaces the original tissue of the victim with illithid tissue; when the transformation is complete, the original victim is dead. Cure disease, remove curse, raise dead, restoration, resurrection, and / or similar spells cannot reverse this process."

the issue is.. it was ANSUR who said he was Balduran not the emperor.. we have PLENTY of reason to not beleive squidward... but nothing to say Ansur is lying =/ so yeah.. it's either a massive plot hole.. or a massive retcon.

[Shyba]

Originally posted by Caerbannog:

So basically Balduran's story has been retconned for BG3?

I seem to (distantly) recall that in the original BG expansion, Balduran's ship had crashed at that shapeshifter island and all the shapeshifters there were descendants from Balduran/Balduran's crew, something your character learns about. It's been so long since I played it I can't remember exactly what happened, though.

So for BG3, he escaped from shapeshifter island, finally made his way home to his city and Ansur, found out a bunch of stuff happened while he was away, and decided he'd head to moonrise tower to get his groove back, only to find himself in the underdark where the elder brain slept and he got himself tadpoled.

Except now he says Ansur was the one who saved him (the image showed Balduran as an illithid, and then later he was arguing with Ansur as a humanoid).

The Emperor is definitely an unreliable and inconsistent narrator.

as for being on the island this whole time... that would imply Balduran was ON the Isle at the same time as BG1 happened.. and they talk like he was long gone lol

[Caerbannog]

So all this piecemeal, inconsistent lore could be resolved if Ansur had just stayed alive and spoke to you rather than getting mad and wanting to fight you. Ansur could've done A LOT more damage if he'd just decided to keep to his partial unlife and spouted off the truth while the emperor flailed and yelled in the background.

Instead Ansur possessed your body only to release you and attempt to kick your ass instead.

[Aouregan]

You should be able to side with Ansur, and for an Oath of Revenge Paladin it should even be mandatory, lest you become an Oathbreaker. Imagine having Ansur among your gathered allies (which basically was what you set out to do to begin with in that quest).
Not sure why they force you to fight for a clearly lying monster (yeah, I call him a monster, because he can not possibly be Balduran. If he at any point was Balduran before he became a mindflayer, then Balduran is dead since that moment). It all feels a bit unfinished / not thought through. Lots of creative liberty taken in regards to the Ceremorphosis issue.

[I'm A Distraction!]

Originally posted by Caerbannog:

So basically Balduran's story has been retconned for BG3?

I seem to (distantly) recall that in the original BG expansion, Balduran's ship had crashed at that shapeshifter island and all the shapeshifters there were descendants from Balduran/Balduran's crew, something your character learns about. It's been so long since I played it I can't remember exactly what happened, though.

So for BG3, he escaped from shapeshifter island, finally made his way home to his city and Ansur, found out a bunch of stuff happened while he was away, and decided he'd head to moonrise tower to get his groove back, only to find himself in the underdark where the elder brain slept and he got himself tadpoled.

Except now he says Ansur was the one who saved him (the image showed Balduran as an illithid, and then later he was arguing with Ansur as a humanoid).

The Emperor is definitely an unreliable and inconsistent narrator.

The cutscene images can't be believed. There was a plot hole when he first explains himself as being turned at Moonrise, considering the cutscene shows the tower in daylight.

Either way there's a few centuries worth plot hole of what he was doing, compounded by the life spans involved. Regardless of Wizards retcon, I'm thinking that's just an oversight... But his reveal as Balduran felt very last minute curve ball for the sake of a "cool" reveal.