DND lore contradictions? spoilers

[Fistimus Maximus]

At the moment where wyll has to choose, sign new pact to save father or break it. Issue is Mizora would have no say other Dukes life, who is she to say if he will die. Same issue with karlach, gortash couldnt have sold her to devil as they can only take souls that willingly signed or agreed prior, (unless they died and where judged so aswell). You can't sign others souls either unless you have control of it which I guess is the whole issue with descent into avernus, Demons can take unwilling souls but not devils.

[I'm A Distraction!]

There's a few contradictions like that around. For Gortash, you might excuse it as he duped Karlach (made her sign a contract presented by a handsome stranger, or swear an oath of loyalty that then got sold to the devil. Karlach's soul isn't sold after all, only get "life").

The Wyll renogiation was weird, though. There being no option of "no deal, I'll wait out the six months" being the most egregious.

[Mizu]

Its eventually revealed that 'he will die' is code for 'Mizora thinks you can't save him without her help and will try to kill him herself if she is wrong and you rescue him'. And if I had to guess the details, when Gortash hired Karlach she probably signed a contract without reading it and said contract involved her consenting to him having the right to sell her to a devil.

[Snake_In_The_Eye]

To my understanding Mizora has no saing on the Duke life, she is only teasing Wyll because she wants him to stay in her service. What she is offering is a way to rescue the father, not to save him.

While Karlach did not die, she was sold probably as a slave. The whole city was transported into the hells in "descent to Avernus", Dammon can forge infernal steel because he learnt it during the blood wars in hell.

[I'm A Distraction!]

Postat inițial de dcalebh:

Its eventually revealed that 'he will die' is code for 'Mizora thinks you can't save him without her help and will try to kill him herself if she is wrong and you rescue him'. And if I had to guess the details, when Gortash hired Karlach she probably signed a contract without reading it and said contract involved her consenting to him having the right to sell her to a devil.

Talking to Mizoram after her attempt at "ensuring" his demise has he say he's still fated to die "because of the contract Wyll agreed too", saving him just delayed the inevitable. At least, that's what the devil you nested one over claims.

[Solid Snake]

because obviously, Mizora has an agreement with someone else's interest that wants the Duke dead (likely Gortash)

Its the only reason she shows up, with some enemy minions to try and take care of the Duke if you go to the underwater prison and save him. But not commits to actually trying to kill him herself by her own hand.

This implies she's made a deal with someone (Gortash) for him to have a certain fate if someone tries to save him.

Which is also why she was fishing for Wyll to re-establish his pact with her.

Mizora is playing both sides.

There is no party that is unwilling involved that shes taking. Shes not even taking the Duke's soul, shes just sabotaging him for him to likely die. This is also implication because she wates for you when you reach Baldur's gate to go get Wyll and directs you to meet Gortash.

For Karlach, she probably already had a standing deal with Gortash, that allowed her to get handed over to Zariel. Since he technically owned her. Thus qualifying as a willing sacrifice. Not an exchange of souls, but more of a deal. Which is likely where Gortash is getting all the Infernal Iron that he's getting to make his Steel Watchers is from that very deal.

[Mizu]

Postat inițial de I'm A Distraction!:

Postat inițial de dcalebh:

Its eventually revealed that 'he will die' is code for 'Mizora thinks you can't save him without her help and will try to kill him herself if she is wrong and you rescue him'. And if I had to guess the details, when Gortash hired Karlach she probably signed a contract without reading it and said contract involved her consenting to him having the right to sell her to a devil.

Talking to Mizoram after her attempt at "ensuring" his demise has he say he's still fated to die "because of the contract Wyll agreed too", saving him just delayed the inevitable. At least, that's what the devil you nested one over claims.

Yeah, but everyone is 'inevitably' going to die at some point so weakly saying 'I'll kill him eventually someday' really isn't much of a threat.

[Razorblade]

Mizora isn't saying Ravengard will definitely die; just that she won't help Wyll find him. If you ignore Mizora's offer, he's still in the Iron Throne; you just have to find him through the Gondian quest instead of through Mizora's advice.

As for Karlach, I was not under the assumption that Gortash sold her soul, but rather physically sold her as a slave, in the same way you would sell anyone else as slave (i.e. subduing them and chaining them up).

Regardless, I don't think DnD canon really has many hard metaphysical rules on how devilish deals work (the ones in Descent Into Avernus' appendix are largely stylistic or gameplay rules).

Literally all of the Elturians "sold" their souls by pledging their undying loyalty to Elturel, which was technically owned by Zariel at the time. If that line of reasoning works, you could pretty much justify any stretch of logic.

[Fistimus Maximus]

Postat inițial de Solid Snake:

because obviously, Mizora has an agreement with someone else's interest that wants the Duke dead (likely Gortash)

Its the only reason she shows up, with some enemy minions to try and take care of the Duke if you go to the underwater prison and save him. But not commits to actually trying to kill him herself by her own hand.

This implies she's made a deal with someone (Gortash) for him to have a certain fate if someone tries to save him.

Which is also why she was fishing for Wyll to re-establish his pact with her.

Mizora is playing both sides.

There is no party that is unwilling involved that shes taking. Shes not even taking the Duke's soul, shes just sabotaging him for him to likely die. This is also implication because she wates for you when you reach Baldur's gate to go get Wyll and directs you to meet Gortash.

For Karlach, she probably already had a standing deal with Gortash, that allowed her to get handed over to Zariel. Since he technically owned her. Thus qualifying as a willing sacrifice.

Oh I get the devil double talk just saying they can't just go around harvesting souls for this very reason. Its why it has to be willing.

[Fistimus Maximus]

Postat inițial de I'm A Distraction!:

Postat inițial de dcalebh:

Its eventually revealed that 'he will die' is code for 'Mizora thinks you can't save him without her help and will try to kill him herself if she is wrong and you rescue him'. And if I had to guess the details, when Gortash hired Karlach she probably signed a contract without reading it and said contract involved her consenting to him having the right to sell her to a devil.

Talking to Mizoram after her attempt at "ensuring" his demise has he say he's still fated to die "because of the contract Wyll agreed too", saving him just delayed the inevitable. At least, that's what the devil you nested one over claims.

Thats how I understood it but like I mentioned the reason devils need contracts from the individual, The only reason they are allowed souls is because there is a contract with asmodeus otherwise there would be devils trying to killing people for their souls but the heavens and other opposing powers would be stopping them.

[I'm A Distraction!]

Postat inițial de Razorblade:

Regardless, I don't think DnD canon really has many hard metaphysical rules on how devilish deals work (the ones in Descent Into Avernus' appendix are largely stylistic in nature).

Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, page 23.
"According to the Pact Primeval, devils cannot reap signatures through torture or threats of force - including force against third parties. This rule does not, however, pertain to individuals who voluntarily sign a Pact Certain to ransom an imprisoned soul from Baator."

[Fistimus Maximus]

Postat inițial de Razorblade:

Mizora isn't saying Ravengard will definitely die; just that she won't help Wyll find him. If you ignore Mizora's offer, he's still in the Iron Throne; you just have to find him through the Gondian quest instead of through Mizora's advice.

As for Karlach, I was not under the assumption that Gortash sold her soul, but rather physically sold her as a slave, in the same way you would sell anyone else as slave (i.e. subduing them and chaining them up).

Regardless, I don't think DnD canon really has many hard metaphysical rules on how devilish deals work (the ones in Descent Into Avernus' appendix are largely stylistic or gameplay rules).

Literally all of the Elturians "sold" their souls by pledging their undying loyalty to Elturel, which was technically owned by Zariel at the time. If that line of reasoning works, you could pretty much justify any stretch of logic.

Devils are the incarnation of law, the whole cosmic order is balanced around alignments so there are opposing powers to stop one power having complete sway, reason why there is the bloodwar in averneus and devils arent reaping souls throughout the material plane. Souls are power in this setting and as they are not divine who garner power through followers (prayer/worshipers) petitioners they require souls not just for the war effort, the main reason is power.

[Fistimus Maximus]

Postat inițial de I'm A Distraction!:

Postat inițial de dcalebh:

Its eventually revealed that 'he will die' is code for 'Mizora thinks you can't save him without her help and will try to kill him herself if she is wrong and you rescue him'. And if I had to guess the details, when Gortash hired Karlach she probably signed a contract without reading it and said contract involved her consenting to him having the right to sell her to a devil.

Talking to Mizoram after her attempt at "ensuring" his demise has he say he's still fated to die "because of the contract Wyll agreed too", saving him just delayed the inevitable. At least, that's what the devil you nested one over claims.

yeah I agree with you, especially since it was witnessed by the sisters im sure some lacky/pawn would eventually see him dead.

[BeautifulFlowerField]

Who cares, they should be able to retcon or change anything for any reason. That's how the tabletop game works after all. Larian is the DM.

[Fistimus Maximus]

Postat inițial de BeautifulFlowerField:

Who cares, they should be able to retcon or change anything for any reason. That's how the tabletop game works after all. Larian is the DM.

not if you want a setting to be believable, if rules are inconsistent nothing has value.

[Noctoculus]

Postat inițial de BeautifulFlowerField:

Who cares, they should be able to retcon or change anything for any reason. That's how the tabletop game works after all. Larian is the DM.

Yeah this works great for movies and tv shows. Use a title that draws in an already established fanbase and then just do whatever! Cha-ching!