A question about Mind Flayers *spoilers*

[Neon Robot]

So a central element of the game is that the Dead Three are trying to gather souls, do what they do, etc. and forming the cult of the absolute is a key part of that. But another element of the story is that Mind Flayers don't have souls at all. But then...how do Alhoon's exist. For those who don't know an Alhoon is a Mind Flayer who has chosen to become a Lich with a Lich being an undead caster who has bound their * soul * to an artifact to elude death. So if a Mind Flayer doesn't have a soul...how do they become an undead mage who binds their soul to an artifact?

Also, this is the literal first time I've ever heard of this being a thing.

[Poqreslux]

IIRC, an illithid is souless in the same way that a fiend or celestial is "souless." It's body and soul form one single unit, cannot be separated by normal means, and when it is killed, it is gone forever. I recall reading this in some old sourcebook for 3/3.5e, which granted is likely decanonized, but I cannot for the life of me remember which one. It might have been Lords of Madness or Elder Evils or the Underdark book for the Forgotten Realms settings.

I was under the impression during this game that when a creature becomes a mindflayer under normal circumstances, the parasite takes over the body and essentially kills the original being when it transforms, releasing the former victims soul to be harvested by whatever deity has claim to it. I had the impression that the illithid you (or Orpheus) can become is an exception to that rule since you become a mindflayer in a means other than normal ceremorphosis.

Also, on the subject of Illithid gods, Ilsensine was detailed as a literal deific being in pretty much every past edition besides 5e. 3.5e's Monster Manual V (I think) introduced an alternative "god" called Thoon that was more of an abstract religious ideality that may or may not be an eldritch being beyond reality. It seems to me that 5e's current Ilsensine lore took some of those ideas and made Ilsensine less of a literal thing and more of a metaphysical concept that could relate to a real being above humanoid understanding.

[Neon Robot]

Publicado originalmente por I'm A Distraction!:

Publicado originalmente por Neon Robot:

Well yes, but that would be the point of the question because this statement doesn't align with D&D as I've known it over time. *snip* But multiple people here have said that there are statements in books that support the Illithid being soulless so I'm still looking for a reference.

Isn't Ioulaum the human Netherese mage that taught mind Flayers how to become alhouns, then used them to forge an undead elder brain he later took control of? He'd have a soul, at least, because he was human and hard magic (something like the magic jar spell) to possess the abomination he created.

He is indeed but I am not referring to him. I am referring to his students who are comprised of both Illithiliches and Ghosts, both of which would need souls to qualify as well, Illithiliches and Ghosts.

[Neon Robot]

Publicado originalmente por Poqreslux:

IIRC, an illithid is souless in the same way that a fiend or celestial is "souless." It's body and soul form one single unit, cannot be separated by normal means, and when it is killed, it is gone forever. I recall reading this in some old sourcebook for 3/3.5e, which granted is likely decanonized, but I cannot for the life of me remember which one. It might have been Lords of Madness or Elder Evils or the Underdark book for the Forgotten Realms settings.

I was under the impression during this game that when a creature becomes a mindflayer under normal circumstances, the parasite takes over the body and essentially kills the original being when it transforms, releasing the former victims soul to be harvested by whatever deity has claim to it. I had the impression that the illithid you (or Orpheus) can become is an exception to that rule since you become a mindflayer in a means other than normal ceremorphosis.

Also, on the subject of Illithid gods, Ilsensine was detailed as a literal deific being in pretty much every past edition besides 5e. 3.5e's Monster Manual V (I think) introduced an alternative "god" called Thoon that was more of an abstract religious ideality that may or may not be an eldritch being beyond reality. It seems to me that 5e's current Ilsensine lore took some of those ideas and made Ilsensine less of a literal thing and more of a metaphysical concept that could relate to a real being above humanoid understanding.

The soul/spirit dichotomy hasn't really been a thing in the game for some time. Early on it was the mechanic used to explain why players could be revived but monsters and similar races didn't. Because their "Spirit" was more primeval and would immediately reincarnate upon death whereas those with a "Soul" could be revived via magic. But yeah, that got decanonized awhile ago.

The problem still exists though, how do Illthid ghosts exist if they don't otherwise have souls.

[Aouregan]

The question of Illithids having souls or not is as old as DnD itself. It's constantly discussed in DnD forums all over the world. (which are better places to look for an answer than this forum here)
In general, if you put Baldur's Gate 3 and its questionable take on the lore aside for a moment, the majority tends towards "Yes, they do possess their own distinct souls." What kind of souls these are, since the mindflayers are kind of an alien race, and what else, is pretty unclear.

What does NOT happen (and which this game repeatedly also does wrong) is that the Illithid retains the soul or personality of the host. The host dies once ceremorphosis completes and the newborn mindflayer is its own being and individual, the host soul being removed to the fugue plane or destroyed in the process. This process is catastrophic for the host and irreversible, save for direct godly interventions or "wish":

Monstrous Arcana: The Illithiad, p.11:
"Ceremorphosis completely replaces the original tissue of the victim with illithid tissue; when the transformation is complete, the original victim is dead. Cure disease, remove curse, raise dead, restoration, resurrection, and / or similar spells cannot reverse this process."

If an Illithid gets unwanted memory glimpses from the host, it is actually considered a mental illness among Illithids and is extremely rare and also minimal in effect. They don't start acting like the previous host. They just start getting strange flashbacks and stuff. I mean... they DID consume the hosts brain during ceremorphosis, so nothing too strange with that, and it is not hinting towards the old personality / soul still being there. That's not the case. What- and whoever the Illithid's host was before the mindflayer was born, is gone and lost. Forever.
Think of it more along the lines of alien chestbursters, but instead of the chest, they burst your whole body. The newborn alien has nothing to do with whoever the host was. Do Ridley Scott's aliens have souls? No idea. Possibily? Is the host dead and gone? Sure is.

[Neon Robot]

Publicado originalmente por Kaeptn Bleibaer:

The question of Illithids having souls or not is as old as DnD itself. It's constantly discussed in DnD forums all over the world. (which are better places to look for an answer than this forum here)
In general, if you put Baldur's Gate 3 and its questionable take on the lore aside for a moment, the majority tends towards "Yes, they do possess their own distinct souls." What kind of souls these are, since the mindflayers are kind of an alien race, and what else, is pretty unclear.
*snip*
Think of it more along the lines of alien chestbursters, but instead of the chest, they burst your whole body. The newborn alien has nothing to do with whoever the host was. Do Ridley Scott's aliens have souls? No idea. Possibily? Is the host dead and gone? Sure is.

Sure there could be better places but I decided here, where there are likely also fans of the games and lore to talk to. Also, this question ties into the game overall. If I wanted to avail myself of those forums, I would've used them. That being said and getting back to my topic, I myself was always under the impression that:

A. Illithids have souls of their own, one that is possessed by the tadpole.
B. That ceremorphosis killed the host and that this was the equivalent of destroying the body hence the original person could not be resurrected.
C. The new Illithid was a wholly unique being, hence the Illithid myth of the Adversary and their fear and hatred of that being.
D. That outside of very rare cases of shreds of memory being retained that the new life form otherwise retained nothing of the original.

But yeah BG3 seems to have created some issues around this and I wanted other people's thoughts and opinions who have played the game as well.

[Aouregan]

Publicado originalmente por Skobone:

The emperor is not its former host. It wears its former host as a mask. If you challenge the emperor, read its thoughts, or scrutinize the stories it tells you, that mask falls apart. Would its former host mind-control a duke and kill his lover in his sleep, and then lie about both events? Would its former host sacrifice the city he founded in fear of reprisal from Orpheus?

If you're also citing Omeluum as a character where this mistake is made, that is not a mistake. Omeluum is also not its former host, nor does it ever claim to be. Arcanist Mind Flayers are an established concept, they are independent mind flayers who absorbed their former hosts arcane aptitude and were able to resist their elder brain through magic. Omeluum isn't even the only arcanist mind flayer in the society of brilliance that has been established, as there was another mind flayer member in the Out of the Abyss module.

As for if you or Karlach embrace ceremorphosis, the implications appear to be the same. You have independence due to the powers of the prism, but your dialogue options are written to be distinct from your former self. It's telling that your illithid's best "hope" is to become like Omeluum.

The whole Balduran story makes no sense. Outside of the event with Ansur (who is the one starting with the whole Balduran nonsense) that tidbit is never touched upon again or even talked about. Even Wyll and his dad are pretty unimpressed by that, and are more concerned with the death of Ansur.
"Dad.... I failed... Ansur is dead! ... oh, and by the way? We ran into Balduran quite a while ago and he is with us.... but ANSUR!"
Not like he even mentions that.

If he wears his former host as a mask, then he is doing a very bad job at that, because he himself never mentions that. Also, how exactly is it doing that? It is Ansur who recognizes him and starts the whole ordeal. I wonder how, becasaue there is nothing of Balduran left. What did Ansur recognize?
It all makes no sense. It seems just hammered across in order to have a reason to fight Ansur. It has no further relevance to anything in the game. All this would have made more sense, if the mind flayer had appeared as Balduran from the beginning on, claiming he is Balduran, and that he needs your help, and not some rando

What powers of the prism? Depending on how you play, Orpheus, the sole reason the prism works, is not in it anymore at that point or is dead, rendering the prism useless

Also, for example Clarota the mind flayer arcanist in "Strange Bedfellows" only can resist the elder brain's command due to a special helmet (Tinfoil hat :D ). They are not all automatically immune to it. They are shunned by all other mind flayers, but they are not immune to an elder brain. All they can do is try to get as much distance between them and any elder brain, as possible, if they really want to stay autonomous.

[Xype]

Publicado originalmente por Wither:

Publicado originalmente por EthanT:

Its not that mindflayers dont have souls, its that mindflayers dont worship the pantheon gods so their souls are useless to the gods. When a person become a mindflayer, thats one less soul for the gods to potentially gain power from. This isnt a big deal until the Absolutes plan goes off and thousands/tens of thousands of souls vanish

There is a mindflayer god, though. The setting being that they didn't just exist out of chaos. Ilsensine implant them with the grand design.

Though the 'background story' or some might prefer to call it 'lore' state that gods are not at all almighty. Gods can die and reborn, all tie to their worshipper which gods can't exit without. Vlaakith, for example, gather herself horde of Gith worshipper and intent to ascend to godhood that way.

Since soul destination determine by their mortal deeds, soul of mindflayer's vessel could be too contaminate from corruption to send back to their original gods, thus it went to Ilsesine instead.

They are thralls to their god though, the soul is useless still. Their body is what their god wants, their soul is nothing, worship and morality is meaningless when its just a sock puppet.

[Aouregan]

Publicado originalmente por Neon Robot:

Sure there could be better places but I decided here, where there are likely also fans of the games and lore to talk to. Also, this question ties into the game overall. If I wanted to avail myself of those forums, I would've used them. That being said and getting back to my topic, I myself was always under the impression that:

A. Illithids have souls of their own, one that is possessed by the tadpole.
B. That ceremorphosis killed the host and that this was the equivalent of destroying the body hence the original person could not be resurrected.
C. The new Illithid was a wholly unique being, hence the Illithid myth of the Adversary and their fear and hatred of that being.
D. That outside of very rare cases of shreds of memory being retained that the new life form otherwise retained nothing of the original.

But yeah BG3 seems to have created some issues around this and I wanted other people's thoughts and opinions who have played the game as well.

A. Seems to be correct, or at least the consensus reached in the DnD community.
B. True, some even go further and say the soul is destroyed in the process. Otherwise a True Resurrection could bring you back, too. That spell recreates your body, if it was lost / destroyed. In that case, bringing back the real Balduran, would only be a matter of finding the right arch-cleric and raising some funds. Only prerequisites are: Not dead for longer than 200 years, and not dead of old age.
C. Correct
D. Correct

We pretty much are of the exact same opinions. And Karlach, or whoever you would choose at the end, would be insta-gibbed. Way to treat your friends. I can somewhat get behind Orpheus not immediately being expelled from the new body. He is the sole reason that prism worked to begin with. But he is no longer in it (either way), so it's now a paper weight.
A lot of these weird issues, including Karlach dying to her heart or someone succumbing to becoming a mindflayer, could have been avoided if they actually let you properly use the "Divine Intervention" you are carrying around for pretty much nothing. Could have been a nice plot / story / choice device. Instead you get some lackluster AOE from it. Seems as if Selune has lost her grit. Imagine having to make the choice at the end of like either reverting your Ceremorphosis, or replacing Karlach's heart with her original one, stuff like that.

[Neon Robot]

Publicado originalmente por Kaeptn Bleibaer:

Publicado originalmente por Neon Robot:

Sure there could be better places but I decided here, where there are likely also fans of the games and lore to talk to. Also, this question ties into the game overall. If I wanted to avail myself of those forums, I would've used them. That being said and getting back to my topic, I myself was always under the impression that:

*snip*

But yeah BG3 seems to have created some issues around this and I wanted other people's thoughts and opinions who have played the game as well.

A. Seems to be correct, or at least the consensus reached in the DnD community.
B. True, some even go further and say the soul is destroyed in the process. Otherwise a True Resurrection could bring you back, too. That spell recreates your body, if it was lost / destroyed. In that case, bringing back the real Balduran, would only be a matter of finding the right arch-cleric and raising some funds. Only prerequisites are: Not dead for longer than 200 years, and not dead of old age.
C. Correct
D. Correct

We pretty much are of the exact same opinions. And Karlach, or whoever you would choose at the end, would be insta-gibbed. Way to treat your friends. I can somewhat get behind Orpheus not immediately being expelled from the new body. He is the sole reason that prism worked to begin with. But he is no longer in it (either way), so it's now a paper weight.
A lot of these weird issues, including Karlach dying to her heart or someone succumbing to becoming a mindflayer, could have been avoided if they actually let you properly use the "Divine Intervention" you are carrying around for pretty much nothing. Could have been a nice plot / story / choice device. Instead you get some lackluster AOE from it. Seems as if Selune has lost her grit. Imagine having to make the choice at the end of like either reverting your Ceremorphosis, or replacing Karlach's heart with her original one, stuff like that.

The only way I can see this making any sort of sense is from the argument that the "astral-tadpole" somehow functions differently than a standard tadpole but since they don't qualify *any* of that it's all guess work. Also, what bothers me is that Karlach's transformation just...shuts off the infernal engine for some reason. Too many things in this game occur because "Mind Flayer".

Broadly, alot of the story issues I have and lore errors occur because it seems like they really wanted to go ALL IN on the Mind Flayer elements of the game. Hence the removal of the ability to get your tadpole taken out by Raphael and the removal of the ring that basically shuts it off. Clearly the plot went through some significant rewrites late in the development process, which happens and overall I like the game, but there are some clear narrative issues.

I mean, honestly the ending is where the game really falls apart for me because of how few *real* options there are and how clearly it was rushed. Like why can't we make a very difficult skill check to appeal to the pragmatism of Orpheus and "The Emperor" to have them work together to just deal with the situation. Or yeah, just get the transformation reverted by a Deity considering we just saved the world/multiverse. Heck, even have the death of the big brain allow us to decide if we want to remain a flayer or if the death of the brain allows us to revert back because "reasons".

There's so much you could do here.

[Aouregan]

Publicado originalmente por Neon Robot:

The only way I can see this making any sort of sense is from the argument that the "astral-tadpole" somehow functions differently than a standard tadpole but since they don't qualify *any* of that it's all guess work. Also, what bothers me is that Karlach's transformation just...shuts off the infernal engine for some reason. Too many things in this game occur because "Mind Flayer".

Yeah, but the emperor, for example, never carried one of those special tadpoles. He is just a run of the mill Illithid. The only reason he is not a puppet of the elder brain at that point, is Orpheus. He can't just infect himself with another tadpole after he already transformed. This tadpole stacking in the game is offensive. Gonna have a whole tadpole convention in your head.

EDIT: And yes, regarding Karlach, Ceremorphosis only replaces the tissue of your body. I don't think the infernal engine qualifies as that. She'd become a mindflayer with a ticking time bomb in the chest.

[sick duck]

Excuse me, but the term "mind flayer" offends me, and if you persist in calling them slurs I will make problems for you. They are Illithid. Bigot.

[Aouregan]

Publicado originalmente por sick duck:

Excuse me, but the term "mind flayer" offends me, and if you persist in calling them slurs I will make problems for you. They are Illithid. Bigot.

:D

[Neon Robot]

Publicado originalmente por Kaeptn Bleibaer:

Publicado originalmente por Neon Robot:

The only way I can see this making any sort of sense is from the argument that the "astral-tadpole" somehow functions differently than a standard tadpole but since they don't qualify *any* of that it's all guess work. Also, what bothers me is that Karlach's transformation just...shuts off the infernal engine for some reason. Too many things in this game occur because "Mind Flayer".

Yeah, but the emperor, for example, never carried one of those special tadpoles. He is just a run of the mill Illithid. The only reason he is not a puppet of the elder brain at that point, is Orpheus.

Oh the Emperor is just a giant bag of question marks. Originally I thought he was just going to be the "Adversary". The unique Mind Flayer who could remember his past and wasn't bound by the collective. Nope, it's Balduran or something. Lore issues aside, OUR MENTAL PROTECTOR IS BALDURAN. I'm going to take the game and devs at face value, ignore the previous lore and now just assume that Mind Flayers keep their memories or whatever and this is just...Balduran. The. F*cking. Balduran.

Like, why? Why would you do this? It's narrative insanity.

Like the more I reflect on this game the more insane the plot seems. It's just got SO much going on in it with SO MANY IMPLICATIONS AND IMPACTS ON THE WHOLE OF THE MULTIVERSE.

Anyway, mild mental breakdown aside, what I really meant is just in general, not even the special tadpole but in general, like...the answer to so many baffling questions is just, "Mind Flayer". Why does Karlach's engine no longer threaten her? Because Mind Flayer. Why can you psionically overpower an Elder Brain? Because Mind Flayer. Why can a vampire walk in the sun? Because Mind Flayer. But wait, Astarion's is a tadpole but provides enough power he can violate all rules that bind vampires yet Karlach has to make a full transformation to overcome her engine.

Sorry, I'm ranting again. Long story short, there's some lore issues here that keep leaving me puzzled.

[Aouregan]

Publicado originalmente por Neon Robot:

Sorry, I'm ranting again. Long story short, there's some lore issues here that keep leaving me puzzled.

That is what grinds my gears throughout the whole game. They just lobbed aside everything that is established about Illithids in decades of DnD. Pretty ballsy move, given that the whole game literally is about them.

[Neon Robot]

Publicado originalmente por Kaeptn Bleibaer:

Publicado originalmente por Neon Robot:

Sorry, I'm ranting again. Long story short, there's some lore issues here that keep leaving me puzzled.

That is what grinds my gears throughout the whole game. They just lobbed aside everything that is established about Illithids in decades of DnD. Pretty ballsy move, given that the whole game literally is about them.

I feel like they started with an idea that the game would have a focus on Illithid and then ambition struck and the scope kept getting bigger. No longer would the voice in your head be Daisy, your tadpole speaking to you and trying to persuade you to use it and its powers more and more. Nope, our friend in the head is now THE Balduran.

Now the plotline contains Orpheus who is the son of Gith and the true heir to the Githyanki Empire.

The Absolute isn't just some Elder Brain that the Chosen have enslaved, they've somehow found the Crown of f*cking Karsus and are using it to enhance and control it.

Everything in this game is just SO world shatteringly big that the early game references to Zariel lose their weight entirely. By mid-game you're just like, yeah? Zariel huh? What's she gonna do? I've gotta decide the fate of the Multiverse here. But I'm also gonna stop and fight like a Kobold or something cause that makes sense.