A question about Mind Flayers *spoilers*

[Neon Robot]

So a central element of the game is that the Dead Three are trying to gather souls, do what they do, etc. and forming the cult of the absolute is a key part of that. But another element of the story is that Mind Flayers don't have souls at all. But then...how do Alhoon's exist. For those who don't know an Alhoon is a Mind Flayer who has chosen to become a Lich with a Lich being an undead caster who has bound their * soul * to an artifact to elude death. So if a Mind Flayer doesn't have a soul...how do they become an undead mage who binds their soul to an artifact?

Also, this is the literal first time I've ever heard of this being a thing.

[EthanT]

Its not that mindflayers dont have souls, its that mindflayers dont worship the pantheon gods so their souls are useless to the gods. When a person become a mindflayer, thats one less soul for the gods to potentially gain power from. This isnt a big deal until the Absolutes plan goes off and thousands/tens of thousands of souls vanish

[I'm A Distraction!]

Alhoon's aren't 'true liches', but a simulacrum of the process invented by the Netherese arcanist that first taught them to use magic (so that he could then harvest a bunch of them to make an undead elder brain he can inhabit. Gotta love 2e lore).

There is, apparently, a true illithid lich called an illich or something, but they're exceeedingly rare.

[Wither]

Originally posted by EthanT:

Its not that mindflayers dont have souls, its that mindflayers dont worship the pantheon gods so their souls are useless to the gods. When a person become a mindflayer, thats one less soul for the gods to potentially gain power from. This isnt a big deal until the Absolutes plan goes off and thousands/tens of thousands of souls vanish

There is a mindflayer god, though. The setting being that they didn't just exist out of chaos. Ilsensine implant them with the grand design.

Though the 'background story' or some might prefer to call it 'lore' state that gods are not at all almighty. Gods can die and reborn, all tie to their worshipper which gods can't exit without. Vlaakith, for example, gather herself horde of Gith worshipper and intent to ascend to godhood that way.

Since soul destination determine by their mortal deeds, soul of mindflayer's vessel could be too contaminate from corruption to send back to their original gods, thus it went to Ilsesine instead.

[Neon Robot]

Originally posted by I'm A Distraction!:

Alhoon's aren't 'true liches', but a simulacrum of the process invented by the Netherese arcanist that first taught them to use magic (so that he could then harvest a bunch of them to make an undead elder brain he can inhabit. Gotta love 2e lore).

There is, apparently, a true illithid lich called an illich or something, but they're exceeedingly rare.

Sorry, I used the nomenclature for Alhoon just because that's usually what people think of. It's specificially Illithilich. Either way them lacking souls would be a problem.

[Neon Robot]

Originally posted by EthanT:

Its not that mindflayers dont have souls, its that mindflayers dont worship the pantheon gods so their souls are useless to the gods. When a person become a mindflayer, thats one less soul for the gods to potentially gain power from. This isnt a big deal until the Absolutes plan goes off and thousands/tens of thousands of souls vanish

That isn't what I got from what was said in game. Do you have something I could cross reference or remember what conversation this happened in?

[Wither]

There is also an Illithilich. There is even an Elderbrain lich.

[Mr.Drow]

Originally posted by EthanT:

Its not that mindflayers dont have souls, its that mindflayers dont worship the pantheon gods so their souls are useless to the gods. When a person become a mindflayer, thats one less soul for the gods to potentially gain power from. This isnt a big deal until the Absolutes plan goes off and thousands/tens of thousands of souls vanish

There are two Illithid god's in Faerun. Ilsenine the Elder Brain god and his servant god Maanzecorian. If an Illithid doesn't worship one of these two their souls eventually make it to the Wall of the Faithless, which is a leftover from Myrkul's rule over the City of Judgement. If they do worship they however become petitioners and exist on as servants to them.

In regards to the cultists they do die when they transform, so the souls would go towards one of the Dead Three. Only True Resurrection or something of that nature would bring that person back as their whole body is consumed.

[StrayBullet]

Illithids are aberrations, this means they are the ghosts in the machine of the new present order of the planes. They don't have souls that are bound to the the wall and the will of the Gods of the new order, but they still have an essence, just from a more primordial source, perhaps even older than AO the Over God.

[sevensided]

Its a bit of a throwback to when DnD differentiated (at least more heavily than it does now) between an animating spirit and a soul. Everything has an animating spirit. Not everything has a soul. Used to be an either or situation way back in the day - some races had spirits, not souls, and you couldn't resurrect them if they died.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, Alhoons aren't true liches- they kind of trick the process into undeath, and have to sacrifice souls to achieve it. How Illithiliches are created isn't exactly expounded upon, but insofar as I can tell, it isn't the usual process.

[I'm A Distraction!]

Originally posted by Mr.Drow:

Originally posted by EthanT:

Its not that mindflayers dont have souls, its that mindflayers dont worship the pantheon gods so their souls are useless to the gods. When a person become a mindflayer, thats one less soul for the gods to potentially gain power from. This isnt a big deal until the Absolutes plan goes off and thousands/tens of thousands of souls vanish

There are two Illithid god's in Faerun. Ilsenine the Elder Brain god and his servant god Maanzecorian. If an Illithid doesn't worship one of these two their souls eventually make it to the Wall of the Faithless, which is a leftover from Myrkul's rule over the City of Judgement. If they do worship they however become petitioners and exist on as servants to them.

In regards to the cultists they do die when they transform, so the souls would go towards one of the Dead Three. Only True Resurrection or something of that nature would bring that person back as their whole body is consumed.

There seems to be a contradiction in canon sources over Mind Flayers having souls, but the greater number of sources, especially more recent ones, are pretty firm on them being soulless.

[Neon Robot]

I've seen a lot of references to current materials saying that Illithid are stated to be souless but I've checked my books and I can't find anything really to support this. Anyone have a reference?

[Mizu]

I always just assumed that they just found a way to stick whatever life force/soul analog they do have into a magic container to become lich like beings as opposed to literally being the same thing as a lich.

[Mizu]

Originally posted by Neon Robot:

I've seen a lot of references to current materials saying that Illithid are stated to be souless but I've checked my books and I can't find anything really to support this. Anyone have a reference?

If nothing else, Withers tells you such during in game dialog and states it again in a stinger scene that runs after the games final credits.

[Neon Robot]

Originally posted by dcalebh:

Originally posted by Neon Robot:

I've seen a lot of references to current materials saying that Illithid are stated to be souless but I've checked my books and I can't find anything really to support this. Anyone have a reference?

If nothing else, Withers tells you such during in game dialog and states it again in a stinger scene that runs after the games final credits.

Well yes, but that would be the point of the question because this statement doesn't align with D&D as I've known it over time. It also raises a lot of lore questions and issues, like how Illithiliches are even possible if they don't have a soul to attach to a phylactery and now grants Illithids immunity to anything that affects a soul. It also raises lore questions about the Undead Elder Brain Ioulaum and the city he rules where he is served by the Ghosts (described in the 5E book as "...the souls of a deceased sentient creature that had been bound to haunt a specific area, object, or creature that held significance to them when they were alive.") of his Illithid students.

For me as someone who is a long term enthusiast of both BG, D&D, and the Forgotten Realm's I am actually really curious about this. But multiple people here have said that there are statements in books that support the Illithid being soulless so I'm still looking for a reference.

[I'm A Distraction!]

Originally posted by Neon Robot:

Originally posted by dcalebh:

If nothing else, Withers tells you such during in game dialog and states it again in a stinger scene that runs after the games final credits.

Well yes, but that would be the point of the question because this statement doesn't align with D&D as I've known it over time. It also raises a lot of lore questions and issues, like how Illithiliches are even possible if they don't have a soul to attach to a phylactery and now grants Illithids immunity to anything that affects a soul. It also raises lore questions about the Undead Elder Brain Ioulaum and the city he rules where he is served by the Ghosts (described in the 5E book as "...the souls of a deceased sentient creature that had been bound to haunt a specific area, object, or creature that held significance to them when they were alive.") of his Illithid students.

For me as someone who is a long term enthusiast of both BG, D&D, and the Forgotten Realm's I am actually really curious about this. But multiple people here have said that there are statements in books that support the Illithid being soulless so I'm still looking for a reference.

Isn't Ioulaum the human Netherese mage that taught mind Flayers how to become alhouns, then used them to forge an undead elder brain he later took control of? He'd have a soul, at least, because he was human and hard magic (something like the magic jar spell) to possess the abomination he created.