Jaheira?

[DontMisunderstand]

I don't understand why they created such an inherently unlikable character and present her as if she's not just an overtly evil ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that any morally upstanding character would kill at their earliest convenience... and then have Karlach fangirl over her as if Karlach didn't actively want to kill the exact kind of horrible evil creature she is. Am I missing something? The very first interaction you have with her is her seeing a group of innocent passersby and immediately threatening their lives while cutting off their escape, and upon being proven to be a piece of ♥♥♥♥ publicly when that information is revealed her next move is to try and have a ♥♥♥♥ measuring contest to save face? Like... the only difference between her and Kagha is that Kagha at least had reasonable and morally good motivations for the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ things she did. Jaheira's just evil for the sake of stroking her own ego, and for some reason the game doesn't seem to treat it that way.

Why is this piece of garbage treated so strangely by the game's narrative?

[Pixel]

Jaheira is an evil character?

I've got 300 hours in this game and this is news to me. . .

[Runic Tunic]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Originally posted by Kaelmato:

You've just walked up to her camp with tadpoles in your head, not only does that mean you could turn into deadly mindflayers at any second, it also means you are most likely agents of the absolute, trying to get your hands on Isobel and promptly getting everyone in the inn killed.

Of course she will attack you at the gate, you'd have to be an absolute idiot not to.
If you consider protecting your people as inherently evil then that's really on you.

As I said before. I have no issues with that part.

If that's not your issue then why did you say:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

She responded with aggression, and I matched it in equal measure. Even breaking out of her multiple different ensnare spells she cast at me during the conversation.

That's a fair assessment of her character from my perspective, so if more experience from previous titles show this as well, I think it reasonable to assume you're correct about the kind of person she is. That also matches my assertion that she's a horrible evil creature,

Her aggression and hostility is totally justified given the circumstances....to protect her people. Yet she's evil for acting hostile and testing you to see if you're evil? I'm failing to see where that's evil here. All I'm seeing is you admitting you acted excessively hostile despite hers being justified.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

In that sense, it would've made more sense for her to attack me instead of waiting for words. She responded with aggression, and I matched it in equal measure. Even breaking out of her multiple different ensnare spells she cast at me during the conversation.

That's a fair assessment of her character from my perspective, so if more experience from previous titles show this as well, I think it reasonable to assume you're correct about the kind of person she is. That also matches my assertion that she's a horrible evil creature, though that may just be my perspective on it... to me, "the ends justify the means" is the archetypical rationale for evil. I appreciate your insight. And your more civilized approach to a disagreement.

No, because again she is still good and is willing to do what she must for the greater good. As soon as you mention being resistant to the mind control, and since there's some evidence that *may* be true, she's willing to test you and use you. Thus the "performative parts.

As i said, I think you need to really take the situation into account here. Go ahead and walk into a military bunker during a raid while wearing enemy colors. Even if you saved a member of the squad and they vouched for you, I can guarantee that *if* you weren't shot on sight, they'd keep guns trained on you, interrogate you, and put you in cuffs for the rest of the time there. That's aggression, and totally justified.

You aren't some famous hero at this time. You're a bunch of nobodies (except maybe Wyll) walking into a barely held together military bunker that's under attack while carrying a brain parasite that can turn you into one of the most terrifying things in Faerun. Jaheira is totally justified in her hostiliy and attempts to test you.

The harpers are the only ones there who don't know me as a hero, but I get your point. And again, I've said multiple times i have no issues with her initial reaction. It was only how long she maintains aggression in the face of proof that she's being silly. And, of course, the performative actions whose sole purpose is to make herself look good. And when it doesn't work, and she's proven to be too weak to control me, she then gets whiny about it like a child. And that's probably the most annoying part, because it directly contradicts her original aggression... showing directly that she knew I was no longer a threat long before she stopped treating me like one. Because if she actually thought I was a threat, the moment it was shown that she had no power to stop me, she would attack. But she didn't, because that wasn't actually why. She wanted to feel strong. She wanted to feel in control. She wanted to dominate others. To show others that she could. To belittle them, and in the process stroke her own ego. I don't think it's all that unreasonable to call her out on that bs.

[Lminith]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Originally posted by Lminith:

Another Critical Miss... wow.

The alignment on DnD is divided by 9, from Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil.
She did not kill you, she decided to talk to you to make her own judgement about you.
A LG character probably would outright attack you, that's the "End justify the means".

Your idea of a lawful good character being a serial killing murder hobo that specifically only targets people without knowing anything about them is odd, to say the least.

Your problem is that you have no idea about BG, Forgotten Realms or D&D.
Lawful Good characters are known to sacrifice the few to save the many. This is the main dillema of Paladins.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

As I said before. I have no issues with that part.

If that's not your issue then why did you say:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

She responded with aggression, and I matched it in equal measure. Even breaking out of her multiple different ensnare spells she cast at me during the conversation.

That's a fair assessment of her character from my perspective, so if more experience from previous titles show this as well, I think it reasonable to assume you're correct about the kind of person she is. That also matches my assertion that she's a horrible evil creature,

Her aggression and hostility is totally justified given the circumstances....to protect her people. Yet she's evil for acting hostile and testing you after the fact? I'm failing to see where the evil here. All I'm seeing is you admitting you acted excessively hostile despite hers being justified.

She literally threatened to kill me and my friends for the crime of existing near her. There's no possible way you could interpret resisting her attacks as "excessively hostile" or unjustified.

[Rabbit]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

No, because again she is still good and is willing to do what she must for the greater good. As soon as you mention being resistant to the mind control, and since there's some evidence that *may* be true, she's willing to test you and use you. Thus the "performative parts.

As i said, I think you need to really take the situation into account here. Go ahead and walk into a military bunker during a raid while wearing enemy colors. Even if you saved a member of the squad and they vouched for you, I can guarantee that *if* you weren't shot on sight, they'd keep guns trained on you, interrogate you, and put you in cuffs for the rest of the time there. That's aggression, and totally justified.

You aren't some famous hero at this time. You're a bunch of nobodies (except maybe Wyll) walking into a barely held together military bunker that's under attack while carrying a brain parasite that can turn you into one of the most terrifying things in Faerun. Jaheira is totally justified in her hostiliy and attempts to test you.

The harpers are the only ones there who don't know me as a hero, but I get your point. And again, I've said multiple times i have no issues with her initial reaction. It was only how long she maintains aggression in the face of proof that she's being silly. And, of course, the performative actions whose sole purpose is to make herself look good. And when it doesn't work, and she's proven to be too weak to control me, she then gets whiny about it like a child. And that's probably the most annoying part, because it directly contradicts her original aggression... showing directly that she knew I was no longer a threat long before she stopped treating me like one. Because if she actually thought I was a threat, the moment it was shown that she had no power to stop me, she would attack. But she didn't, because that wasn't actually why. She wanted to feel strong. She wanted to feel in control. She wanted to dominate others. To show others that she could. To belittle them, and in the process stroke her own ego. I don't think it's all that unreasonable to call her out on that bs.

I hope you don't fly anywhere, because you're definitely going to pick a fight with airport security after they get upset that you tried to break the metal detector.

[Runic Tunic]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

And when it doesn't work, and she's proven to be too weak to control me,

Ah. That right there explains it. Sounds like this is definitely a you thing and took her justified behavior WAAAYY to personally.

Fact is, Jaheria is good. Neutral Good, if I remember correctly from past games. She's willing to do what she must to protect the good. That includes putting on a show to test someone she's not sure of their intentions.

That's not being evil. That's being deceitful, at worst. Which isn't inherently evil, as good people have manipulated and deceived bad people as well.

[Jean-Maurice Nya]

Jaheira is neutral strict. You pose a threat to balance, you have to die. Nothing evil there. And she's a hero who has been working for the balance to avoid evil or good to overwhelm others (if you have 20 or 0 reputation she leaves the party). She's also trained to the Harper's way, which can be quite expeditive when they identify a threat.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Lminith:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Your idea of a lawful good character being a serial killing murder hobo that specifically only targets people without knowing anything about them is odd, to say the least.

Your problem is that you have no idea about BG, Forgotten Realms or D&D.
Lawful Good characters are known to sacrifice the few to save the many. This is the main dillema of Paladins.

Sacrificing the few for the many is most certainly not a lawful good thing. Self-sacrifice for the greater good, sure. Definitely good there, that's what good is about. Arbitrarily sacrificing others for more others isn't an inherent good. You could reasonably argue it as a neutral act, or even evil. Lawful? Doubtful. The trolley problem doesn't provide enough context to place it on the alignment chart on its own, let alone allow you to determine that all lawful good characters inherently pull the lever every single time.

[shogunsmurf]

Originally posted by Lminith:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Your idea of a lawful good character being a serial killing murder hobo that specifically only targets people without knowing anything about them is odd, to say the least.

Your problem is that you have no idea about BG, Forgotten Realms or D&D.
Lawful Good characters are known to sacrifice the few to save the many. This is the main dillema of Paladins.

That's not how lawful good works. Lawful good = following law regardless.

Sacrificing a few to save more ? that would be chaotic good, neutral good at best.

Unless the law ofc says "sacrifcing innocents to save more innocents", than it's lawful good.

But you ignoring any law regardless because you think the higher moral good is to save the many, would you acting on your own moral insight, that's neutral / chaotic behavoir.

EDIT : Also no moral dilema for a Paladin, part of your oath is to do no harm to innocents. So you can't sacrificer the fewer, because your god would forsake you and you wouldn't be able ot safe the many anyhow. Geralt said it best "if I had to chose between a evil and a lesser evil, i'd rather not chose at all, evil is evil no matter it's size".

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

And when it doesn't work, and she's proven to be too weak to control me,

Ah. That right there explains it. Sounds like this is definitely a you thing and took her justified behavior WAAAYY to personally.

Fact is, Jaheria is good. Neutral Good, if I remember correctly from past games. She's willing to do what she must to protect the good. That includes putting on a show to test someone she's not of their intentions.

That's not being evil. That's being deceitful, at worst. Which isn't inherently evil, as good people have manipulated and deceived bad people as well.

No that's something that happens at the end of the encounter. It's not something that flavored her reactions until afterward.

[Runic Tunic]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

If that's not your issue then why did you say:




Her aggression and hostility is totally justified given the circumstances....to protect her people. Yet she's evil for acting hostile and testing you after the fact? I'm failing to see where the evil here. All I'm seeing is you admitting you acted excessively hostile despite hers being justified.

She literally threatened to kill me and my friends for the crime of existing near her. There's no possible way you could interpret resisting her attacks as "excessively hostile" or unjustified.

Because you walked into a military operation, where you have NO authority there, and continued to act hostile, resisted arrest, and refused to cooperate while CARRYING A TADPOLE, all because you decided to RP as someone who has authority issues.

That doesn't make her evil. Might make you very reactionary and needlessly hostile towards justified caution, but definitely doe snot make Jaheira evil.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Boon: Safeword:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

The harpers are the only ones there who don't know me as a hero, but I get your point. And again, I've said multiple times i have no issues with her initial reaction. It was only how long she maintains aggression in the face of proof that she's being silly. And, of course, the performative actions whose sole purpose is to make herself look good. And when it doesn't work, and she's proven to be too weak to control me, she then gets whiny about it like a child. And that's probably the most annoying part, because it directly contradicts her original aggression... showing directly that she knew I was no longer a threat long before she stopped treating me like one. Because if she actually thought I was a threat, the moment it was shown that she had no power to stop me, she would attack. But she didn't, because that wasn't actually why. She wanted to feel strong. She wanted to feel in control. She wanted to dominate others. To show others that she could. To belittle them, and in the process stroke her own ego. I don't think it's all that unreasonable to call her out on that bs.

I hope you don't fly anywhere, because you're definitely going to pick a fight with airport security after they get upset that you tried to break the metal detector.

I wouldn't fly with an airline that threatens to murder me for buying a ticket, so I fail to see the connection.

[Lminith]

The alignment has 4 extremes, one of which is LG. Why would you think extremist characters would not kill?
Do you know how many people died at the ends of Inquisition IRL?

Jaheira is True Neutral (TN), she's for balance, Good-Evil and Law-Chaos.
It's not personal. If she considers you a threat for that balance she'll deal with you... and it doesn't end with her... Harpies will follow suit relentlessly.

[Runic Tunic]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

Ah. That right there explains it. Sounds like this is definitely a you thing and took her justified behavior WAAAYY to personally.

Fact is, Jaheria is good. Neutral Good, if I remember correctly from past games. She's willing to do what she must to protect the good. That includes putting on a show to test someone she's not of their intentions.

That's not being evil. That's being deceitful, at worst. Which isn't inherently evil, as good people have manipulated and deceived bad people as well.

No that's something that happens at the end of the encounter. It's not something that flavored her reactions until afterward.

Really? Because I went through that whole thing and nothing she said or did came across as unjustified at any point. Her focus was always to test you and protect her people. I explained myself, helped her protect Isobel, and took out the Moonrise towers to help.

Afterwards she seemed to generally trust me. Still has her moments, but I get it. I still don't view anything she's done as evil.