Jaheira?

[DontMisunderstand]

I don't understand why they created such an inherently unlikable character and present her as if she's not just an overtly evil ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that any morally upstanding character would kill at their earliest convenience... and then have Karlach fangirl over her as if Karlach didn't actively want to kill the exact kind of horrible evil creature she is. Am I missing something? The very first interaction you have with her is her seeing a group of innocent passersby and immediately threatening their lives while cutting off their escape, and upon being proven to be a piece of ♥♥♥♥ publicly when that information is revealed her next move is to try and have a ♥♥♥♥ measuring contest to save face? Like... the only difference between her and Kagha is that Kagha at least had reasonable and morally good motivations for the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ things she did. Jaheira's just evil for the sake of stroking her own ego, and for some reason the game doesn't seem to treat it that way.

Why is this piece of garbage treated so strangely by the game's narrative?

[Empukris]

How is she evil? She is supposed to be true neutral but what I feel in BG3 is that she is too much on the neutral good.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Dera:

Idk she didn't come off that way to me. She is supposed to be a true neutral character though since that is her alignment in BG1 and 2.

She stops random strangers from entering to make sure they aren't true souls trying to trick their way in by "saving" a bunch of her people. Finds out we are true souls (as far as she knows. Remember 99% of people with the special magic tadpole are literally under the command of some weird fake god who can control you through the parasite), and at least place I explained why we were Different (tm) joked around about it a little bit, pointed out she was being silly by trying to give me truth serum and managed to get her to laugh.

We were pretty much besties after that and I feel like it was a pretty natural reaction to someone with a literal death sentence, time bomb, mind control device in their brain?

Maybe I'm the odd one out here though...

To me that argument sounds like she's just incredibly stupid. Saving literally everyone in the Inn at some point in time directly from the big threats she's afraid of at the moment should on its own have meant she wasn't suspicious of my party being agents of the threats I saved people from in order to get there. The idea that it would be some big brain play by the absolute to destroy almost all of the absolute's forces and cripple their command structure? That's just stupidity to suggest, let alone believe. She does back down shortly after, but then insists on a petty show of force to put me in my place immediately? And then the conversation seconds later in private she refers to the positive things she said as a public display for morale's sake even though she privately still has her reservations... thus proving true my interpretation that her show of force was performative, to enforce the same strongman persona that petty dictators use in real life. I dunno, it seems ridiculous. The kind of thing a person in her situation wouldn't do unless they were only concerned about maintaining their own political power, with nothing else actually mattering to them.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Boon: Safeword:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

I wasn't offended at that part. I was annoyed that the game continued to treat her as if she were someone worthy of respect after she displayed the inherently negative personality traits I described in my original post. Her actions didn't bother me. Her personality and the inappropriate response to it from the party did.

It sounds like you're the only person in the party that doesn't understand that what she did was common sense

It wasn't common sense, it was stupidity. On Karlach's part, and on Jaheira's. "These people saved our lives literally minutes ago" being met with "Kill them immediately" is absurd on every level. And then when the second wave of people comes and says "wtf why are you attacking the people who saved our lives last week?", and she's STILL not backing down? No, she's just a moron. And Karlach's even dumber for not seeing that. To Karlach's credit, nobody ever claimed she wasn't an idiot. It's part of her character. An endearing part, mostly.

[Rabbit]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Originally posted by Boon: Safeword:

It sounds like you're the only person in the party that doesn't understand that what she did was common sense

It wasn't common sense, it was stupidity. On Karlach's part, and on Jaheira's. "These people saved our lives literally minutes ago" being met with "Kill them immediately" is absurd on every level. And then when the second wave of people comes and says "wtf why are you attacking the people who saved our lives last week?", and she's STILL not backing down? No, she's just a moron. And Karlach's even dumber for not seeing that. To Karlach's credit, nobody ever claimed she wasn't an idiot. It's part of her character. An endearing part, mostly.

Do you have any idea what the Shadowlands are? Pay any attention to the plot? Or what's been happening there? Or listen to a single thing that's happening in the game around you? Why would she trust someone she knows has a tadpole without some serious convincing? You seem to expect her to roll over and play dead because you told her you're the main character.

[Runic Tunic]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Originally posted by Boon: Safeword:

It sounds like you're the only person in the party that doesn't understand that what she did was common sense

It wasn't common sense, it was stupidity. On Karlach's part, and on Jaheira's. "These people saved our lives literally minutes ago" being met with "Kill them immediately" is absurd on every level. And then when the second wave of people comes and says "wtf why are you attacking the people who saved our lives last week?", and she's STILL not backing down? No, she's just a moron. And Karlach's even dumber for not seeing that. To Karlach's credit, nobody ever claimed she wasn't an idiot. It's part of her character. An endearing part, mostly.

She's been an adventurer for a long time, for the greater good for a long time. And she is VERY familiar with bhaalspawns, cults, and the workings of evil forces. She recognizes good and evil are often grey.

Saving someone else's life doesn't necessarily make you good, and she's acutely aware that you are inflicted with the same thing as the other Absolute/mindflayers, a species VERY well known for their manipulative tactics. They're also in a VERY bad place in the Shadowlands and barely surviving, so the utmost amount of caution needs to be maintained...which is even proven true when one of their own betrays them.

It's not stupidity it's extreme caution. She would know the possibility of manipulation and is praised by people becaus eof all the good she's done.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Boon: Safeword:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

It wasn't common sense, it was stupidity. On Karlach's part, and on Jaheira's. "These people saved our lives literally minutes ago" being met with "Kill them immediately" is absurd on every level. And then when the second wave of people comes and says "wtf why are you attacking the people who saved our lives last week?", and she's STILL not backing down? No, she's just a moron. And Karlach's even dumber for not seeing that. To Karlach's credit, nobody ever claimed she wasn't an idiot. It's part of her character. An endearing part, mostly.

Do you have any idea what the Shadowlands are? Pay any attention to the plot? Or what's been happening there? Or listen to a single thing that's happening in the game around you? Why would she trust someone she knows has a tadpole without some serious convincing? You seem to expect her to roll over and play dead because you told her you're the main character.

So far, all the info I have on the area is that it's a curse that Halsin feels responsible for but doesn't know exactly how to fix. I think he mentioned some specific person I can talk to to fix the curse? It's not entirely relevant though, not to Jaheira. The tadpole is Jaheira's main concern with the party, and that has nothing to do with the shadow curse.

I wasn't the one who told her anything. It was HER people who told her I was trustworthy. That should inherently carry more weight than what I say. However, it wasn't. The only thing that actually made her back down was noticing the fact that I have more people on my side than her in that encampment. Her picking a fight with me would mean she'd make enemies of almost everyone there. Her not killing me was a political move for her own survival, not a choice based on morality or threat assessment.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

It wasn't common sense, it was stupidity. On Karlach's part, and on Jaheira's. "These people saved our lives literally minutes ago" being met with "Kill them immediately" is absurd on every level. And then when the second wave of people comes and says "wtf why are you attacking the people who saved our lives last week?", and she's STILL not backing down? No, she's just a moron. And Karlach's even dumber for not seeing that. To Karlach's credit, nobody ever claimed she wasn't an idiot. It's part of her character. An endearing part, mostly.

She's been an adventurer for a long time, for the greater good for a long time. And she is VERY familiar with bhaalspawns, cults, and the workings of evil forces. She recognizes good and evil are often grey.

Someone saving someone else's life doesn't necessarily make you good, and she's acutely aware that you are inflicted with the same thing as the other Absolute/mindflayers, a species VERY well known for their manipulative tactics. They're also in a VERY bad place in the Shadowlands and barely surviving, so the utmost amount of caution needs to be maintained...which is even proven true when one of their own betrays them.

It's not stupidity it's extreme caution. She would know the possibility of manipulation and is praised by people becaus eof all the good she's done.

There's a difference between caution and paranoia.

[Lminith]

Someone rolled a 1 on Detect Evil :P
You should play a Paladin, it would help.

[alex010300]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHY8cwOHhbk

[Runic Tunic]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

She's been an adventurer for a long time, for the greater good for a long time. And she is VERY familiar with bhaalspawns, cults, and the workings of evil forces. She recognizes good and evil are often grey.

Someone saving someone else's life doesn't necessarily make you good, and she's acutely aware that you are inflicted with the same thing as the other Absolute/mindflayers, a species VERY well known for their manipulative tactics. They're also in a VERY bad place in the Shadowlands and barely surviving, so the utmost amount of caution needs to be maintained...which is even proven true when one of their own betrays them.

It's not stupidity it's extreme caution. She would know the possibility of manipulation and is praised by people becaus eof all the good she's done.

There's a difference between caution and paranoia.

When you are literally barely surviving in the middle of enemy territory? No not really.

If I was in the middle of a combat zone IRL, barely surviving and someone just walks in carrying the enemy symbol on their uniform, idc if they saved a group of refugees and said they "weren't with the enemy." I'd still be very cautious and not trust them. As far as ik this could be an elaborate trap.

Jaaheira can be a hardass and cynical, but nothing she really does there is stupid or unreasonable.

EDIT: And we're talking about literal brainwashing parasites and forces of evil that can corrupt/rot you away in an instant. I'm honestly surprised she wasn't even more paranoid/cautious.

[Lminith]

You probably didn't play older BGs.
Jaheira has a realistic down-to-earth no-nonsense demeanor.
She suffered dearly allong the way and has a more pessimistic look on things.

Your character has a tadpole and is potentially being controlled by an evil being before becoming one yourself.
Tell me again why she would show any kindness towards you?
Remember when you started the game and Lae'Zel pointed her sword at you? You're a threat.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

There's a difference between caution and paranoia.

When you are literally barely surviving in the middle of enemy territory? No not really.

If I was in the middle of a combat zone IRL, barely surviving and someone just walks in carrying the enemy symbol on their uniform, idc if they saved a group of refugees and said they "weren't with the enemy." I'd still be very cautious and not trust them. As far as ik this could be an elaborate trap.

Jaaheira can be a hardass and cynical, but nothing she really does there is stupid or unreasonable.

Paranoia puts you in more danger, not less. That's the difference. That's why one is considered a personality quirk and the other a mental illness.

[Netzach Sloth]

And she was completely unreasonable during the first meeting. If it didn't agro the whole base, I'd have killed her right there.

[Rabbit]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Originally posted by Runic Tunic:

When you are literally barely surviving in the middle of enemy territory? No not really.

If I was in the middle of a combat zone IRL, barely surviving and someone just walks in carrying the enemy symbol on their uniform, idc if they saved a group of refugees and said they "weren't with the enemy." I'd still be very cautious and not trust them. As far as ik this could be an elaborate trap.

Jaaheira can be a hardass and cynical, but nothing she really does there is stupid or unreasonable.

Paranoia puts you in more danger, not less. That's the difference. That's why one is considered a personality quirk and the other a mental illness.

I'm 100% convinced you've just gotten to this part of the game and have no idea what's going on in the plot or lore and are trying to save face because you don't understand it. There's no excuse at this point.

[DontMisunderstand]

Originally posted by Lminith:

You probably didn't play older BGs.
Jaheira has a realistic down-to-earth no-nonsense demeanor.
She suffered dearly allong the way and has a more pessimistic look on things.

Your character has a tadpole and is potentially being controlled by an evil being before becoming one yourself.
Tell me again why she would show any kindness towards you?
Remember when you started the game and Lae'Zel pointed her sword at you? You're a threat.

That's correct. I did not play the others. But, your assessment isn't what she showed me. She was neither down-to-earth nor no-nonsense. Her mind was focused on imaginary potentialities, and her actions were focused on performative dance for the benefit of onlookers. Others here suggested that might not always be the case depending on how you played the game up to that point, and I definitely believe that might be true.

Lae'zel is a piece of crap too. The difference is, the game treats her as such, and it doesn't for Jaheira, despite, like you mention, them having extremely similar behavioral patterns.