Jaheira?

[DontMisunderstand]

I don't understand why they created such an inherently unlikable character and present her as if she's not just an overtly evil ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that any morally upstanding character would kill at their earliest convenience... and then have Karlach fangirl over her as if Karlach didn't actively want to kill the exact kind of horrible evil creature she is. Am I missing something? The very first interaction you have with her is her seeing a group of innocent passersby and immediately threatening their lives while cutting off their escape, and upon being proven to be a piece of ♥♥♥♥ publicly when that information is revealed her next move is to try and have a ♥♥♥♥ measuring contest to save face? Like... the only difference between her and Kagha is that Kagha at least had reasonable and morally good motivations for the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ things she did. Jaheira's just evil for the sake of stroking her own ego, and for some reason the game doesn't seem to treat it that way.

Why is this piece of garbage treated so strangely by the game's narrative?

[Lminith]

Originally posted by alex010300:

Originally posted by Lminith:

Riddle me, Riddle me Boo
If you consider Jaheira Evil
If you consider Edwin Good
Which alignment does that make you?

Evil

Incomplete

[Runic Tunic]

Originally posted by Jean-Maurice Nya:

Runic Tunic, that's the opposite, alignment is crucial to RP. Roleplaying is being limited by our choices, it's not total freedom, far from it.
Larian has a problem with roleplaying and it shows a lot since DoS2 when they removed the rep/alignment system completely. I agree the shifumi was a bad game design for alignment, but the alignment must remain.
Any change of alignment has to come with a (social) cost to your character.

Basically, a paladin doesn't become a death knight in no time, like you don't make an elf and a dwarf best buddies in 15 lines of a book, but hundreds.
The more it goes, the more Larian uses childish game design, a shame when you know where they started.

But you don't need a rigid alignment system to convey the very narrative examples you just listed. Let me clarify: When I say an alignment system is limiting, I'm not saying good, bad, chaos, and order shouldn't be taken into account, or that alignment shifts shouldn't have consequences. I'm saying that applying such a system without accounting for nuance, which is what the original systems often struggled with, is limiting.

As for writing, I can get where people would see issues and I agree. But I don't think implementing a rigid alignment system would fix that. They are two separate things, and though they can overlap, one doesn't rely on the other entirely. Take DA: O. There's still the concept of good & evil on a more general scale, but no strict alignment system is used and it uses grey areas to enrich the RP and story.

To be clear, I'm not saying alignment can't be a useful tool. I already said I think it works great in certain situations, but I don't think it's really a matter of debate that there are limits to it's application, like all things.

[Whale hunter]

Have you just mashed the space bar through all the dialogue and plot? Have you even played 1 and 2? She’s always been an angry as ♥♥♥♥ vengeful Druid. She’s crazy powerful and doesn’t suffer fools. They captured her personality almost perfectly from the first 2 games.

[Doomvora]

Tell me you don't know the story of baldur's gate without telling me you don't know the story of baldur's gate.

also feels like you literally never listened to anything Jaheira said.

[Napitok Bogov]

another low IQ question

[Elendir Blue]

OP has funny username, with how much they misunderstand first encounter with Jaheira.

[Martin]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Why is this piece of garbage treated so strangely by the game's narrative?

Because She and Minsk are legends. You would understand if you played the earlier games when they came out. To kids these days.. where you can just make up fake facts about everyone.. i suppose she is whatever you claim she is.

[Toaster Maximus]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

Originally posted by Boon: Safeword:

She's on a long list of NPCs that the player base gets irrationally offended by because she treats your character as a dangerous potential mindflayer and member of the absolute's cult (which you are as far as anyone would know until you prove otherwise)

I wasn't offended at that part. I was annoyed that the game continued to treat her as if she were someone worthy of respect after she displayed the inherently negative personality traits I described in my original post. Her actions didn't bother me. Her personality and the inappropriate response to it from the party did.

She always has had that negative side comes with her being a druid and the group she belongs to most come off has a holes right away till you prove your not a threat, beats how she was in bg 1 the whole talking down thing got annoying fast.

[Jean-Maurice Nya]

Runic Tunic, the system is nuanced from the beginning. The description of alignments shows there're variations to each. The fact is Larian refuses to make antagonist characters kill each others or part ways, leading to a new party management. That's even the opposite, you can pet your companions so they'll finish to more or less get along while there're almost no lines shared between them.
Roleplaying implies limitations to what we do. Larian doesn't like that.

[Hawke]

Originally posted by Jean-Maurice Nya:

The fact is Larian refuses to make antagonist characters kill each others and part ways, leading to a new party management. That's even the opposite, you can pet your companions so they'll finish to more or less get along while there're almost no lines shared between them.
Roleplaying implies limitations to what we do. Larian doesn't like that.

Except Larian has included certain actions that will make 2-3 companions leave the party and 1 to join. And some of them might kill each other during camp events, while being of similar alignment (probably LE and NE, and CG and NG).

The issue with the alignment system in video games is the inability to express the PC's motivation or the larger context of the actions. One might be completely CE while taking care of their subjects. Or LG, going for the long-term greater good and having a bunch of random people transform into illithid off-screen.

Also, for the Lawful branch specifically. If several laws, traditions, and personal codes conflict, which are to uphold and which are to break? It was extremely noticeable in PF: KM with the Hellknights.

[Algeroth]

Originally posted by Boon: Safeword:

I've pointed it out several times. The other person is pointing it out repeatedly. You even keep admitting it. There's nothing else to do if you won't listen. The game doesn't treat her as evil because what she did made sense. It makes sense if you paid attention to how serious the situation is. You did not. You're the only piece of the puzzle not fitting and it's either because you're skipping dialogue and all the lore around you or just retaining nothing

The game DO treat her as evil! What else would you call someone whom is torturing innocent refugees to death as we see in the house next to the potters?

[Hattori]

She is interesting well like most characters in bg2 in bg3 she is medicore well like all characters

[Jean-Maurice Nya]

Ok Hawke, I'll check again because I did everything I could (within my evil roleplay) to make them leave or hate each others. And Lae'zel didn't kill Shadowheart while I hoped for it from the beginning.

For the lawful question, it's pretty obvious: you follow the closest authority to your personal belief system. Regil from wrath of the righteous is pretty much a perfect example of a lawful character. He follows you as the crusade authority until very late until his own group, the hellknights, decides to choose if you're worthy of their allegiance or not. During the crusade he's loyal to you, but ultimately he's a hellknight and recognizes their authority over others.

[Broan]

Originally posted by DontMisunderstand:

I don't understand why they created such an inherently unlikable character and present her as if she's not just an overtly evil ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that any morally upstanding character would kill at their earliest convenience... Jaheira's just evil for the sake of stroking her own ego, and for some reason the game doesn't seem to treat it that way.

Why is this piece of garbage treated so strangely by the game's narrative?

I don't know what the heck you are on to perceive Jaheira even remotely evil.
I have her and Minsc in my Party since i could add them and they are pretty amazing characters which absolutely shine in the City's storytelling. Jaheira was never evil and never did something to stroke her own ego as you say- thats utter nonsense.

[Natya]

Originally posted by Boon: Safeword:

She's on a long list of NPCs that the player base gets irrationally offended by because she treats your character as a dangerous potential mindflayer and member of the absolute's cult (which you are as far as anyone would know until you prove otherwise)[/b[]

This guy gets it.