Shadowheart and Lae'zel Drama Spoilers.

[FreshRevenge]

It is well established early in the game that Shadowheart has a problem or a disposition against the Githyanki.

When you are aboard the nautiloid in the beginning when you release Shadowheart, you can see her distrust of Lae'zel.

On the beach when you wake up Shadowheart you can ask where "our gith friend is" Shadowheart replies with "I would reconsider calling her a friend".

If you have Shadowheart and Lae'zel, it's really Shadowheart that has a problem here.

So during the game there is a pivotal moment where you catch them arguing about the artifact. Now to be honest, Lae'zel is correct here.

Shadowheart was tasked by her covenant to steal a most powerful item. And it happen to belong to the Githyanki. So it seems fair and well within reason for Lae'zel to be upset.

Yet Shadowheart deflects her crime by saying we should work together to fight the real enemy. Now imagine if Shadowheart didn't steal the Astral Prism. She wouldn't have been in that situation.

Shadowheart has been the instigator of all the arguments between Lae'zel and her. Saying she is going to keep an eye on her, or asking how one deals with someone that has wronged you, "good to know". Whereas if you have other people in your group, they are fascinated with Lae'zel. Gale talks about the Astral Plane. Or Wyll will start flirting with her." Do you believe in love at first sight"

But Shadowheart basically has Lae'zel at knifepoint. Meaning she didn't trust Lae'zel and was about to kill her for her misguided hatred toward Gith. Some of that I could say was from her brainwashing from her cult of Shar fanatics. I don't care about her future story. I have to judge Shadowheart in the now.

But nope Shadowheart has a stick in her ass the whole time regarding Lae'zel. Even if you diffuse the situation, there is still that tension there. So I am on my second playthrough, I decided to side with Lae'zel and we both fight Shadowheart and Shadowheart dies.

I wished I had the option to tell Shadowheart to leave but she would have turned into a mindflayer since she wouldn't have the protection of the artifact. Oh well, I will have Gale as my cleric and all is good now.

[Creomortis]

Weird, the tension was gone when I got them to make up.

[Calculus]

In my game they become actually pretty friendly to each other...

[FreshRevenge]

Originally posted by Calculus:

In my game they become actually pretty friendly to each other...

Doesn't really excuse the fact that Shadowheart was really the reason, they were both fighting up to that point.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Originally posted by FreshRevenge:

Originally posted by Calculus:

In my game they become actually pretty friendly to each other...

Doesn't really excuse the fact that Shadowheart was really the reason, they were both fighting up to that point.

Actually Lae'zal also makes remarks, like you need to try to convince her Shadowheart should be released from the pod, and she also makes comments about Shadowheart, their hostility is quite mutual.
The as to say peak(i did not get them to fight) is when they reach i a certain place where Shadowheart makes a comment about the darkness and that Laezal should make sure she does not die, whereas Laezal outright points out that slicing her throat would not be hard in this darkness:)
And thereafter they became nearly besties. And the strange part is, i never noticed what lead to it, they were nearly killing each other at one point, then suddenly they are friendly, nothing to indicate why, regarding their banter.

[PwnyHipster]

The Lae'Zel and Shadowheart in my game actually like each other now.

[Troglodyte]

ok

[FreshRevenge]

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

Originally posted by FreshRevenge:

Doesn't really excuse the fact that Shadowheart was really the reason, they were both fighting up to that point.

Actually Lae'zal also makes remarks, like you need to try to convince her Shadowheart should be released from the pod, and she also makes comments about Shadowheart, their hostility is quite mutual.
The as to say peak(i did not get them to fight) is when they reach i a certain place where Shadowheart makes a comment about the darkness and that Laezal should make sure she does not die, whereas Laezal outright points out that slicing her throat would not be hard in this darkness:)
And thereafter they became nearly besties. And the strange part is, i never noticed what lead to it, they were nearly killing each other at one point, then suddenly they are friendly, nothing to indicate why, regarding their banter.

Lae'zel is from a militant culture. I mean they have to be since their people were enslaved by the Mindflayers. So they remind me of Spartans where they cull the weak.

So it wasn't personal to Lae'zel. Shadowheart made it personal. Basically Shadowheart was poking the beehive, that Lae'zel responded back.

Also Shadowheart stole the Astral Prism artifact that was from the Gith. And Lae'zel finds out that Shadowheart stole it.

[Calculus]

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

Originally posted by FreshRevenge:

Doesn't really excuse the fact that Shadowheart was really the reason, they were both fighting up to that point.

Actually Lae'zal also makes remarks, like you need to try to convince her Shadowheart should be released from the pod, and she also makes comments about Shadowheart, their hostility is quite mutual.
The as to say peak(i did not get them to fight) is when they reach i a certain place where Shadowheart makes a comment about the darkness and that Laezal should make sure she does not die, whereas Laezal outright points out that slicing her throat would not be hard in this darkness:)
And thereafter they became nearly besties. And the strange part is, i never noticed what lead to it, they were nearly killing each other at one point, then suddenly they are friendly, nothing to indicate why, regarding their banter.

Well, after lezael quest shadowheart mentions something along the lines that she feels sorry for her that she basically lost everything.
and lezael... well, there were banters where she mentions she starts to respect the usefulnes of shadowheart in combat.

While it's a bit quick change, it's not that surprising.

[Dragon Master]

In many ways Shadowheart is 100% right to treat Lae'zel and the Githyanki with absolute suspicion. There is nothing in the game, unless you're playing a Githyanki yourself, that says Shadowheart is wrong. The Githyanki kill people who get in their way, genuinely see anyone and everyone who isn't a gith as beneath them, and they have no problems killing each other as a way to prove their own strength, and justify it as culling the weak.

Lae'zel at the start of the game is a zealot herself who would happily see everyone in the party killed if she herself didn't need to rely on them for survival. She even abandons the party at the start and only rejoins us after she was captured by the tieflings and was held in a trap, and at that point in the story is too proud to accept she needs help but also can't do anything about it either.

Two things can be true at once. Shadowheart has stolen a githyanki artifact and Lae'zel has every reason to be upset about it and Lae'zel is also a zealot who would happily see Shadowheart killed if circumstances were any different, artifact or no.

The two of them can become quite close and genuinely good friends by the end. It takes them both learning the error of the ways and seeing what Shar's religion has done to Shadowheart and the propaganda Lae'zel grew up with and had to accept was fake and accept reality before they do it.

[Federok]

Originally posted by FreshRevenge:

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

Actually Lae'zal also makes remarks, like you need to try to convince her Shadowheart should be released from the pod, and she also makes comments about Shadowheart, their hostility is quite mutual.
The as to say peak(i did not get them to fight) is when they reach i a certain place where Shadowheart makes a comment about the darkness and that Laezal should make sure she does not die, whereas Laezal outright points out that slicing her throat would not be hard in this darkness:)
And thereafter they became nearly besties. And the strange part is, i never noticed what lead to it, they were nearly killing each other at one point, then suddenly they are friendly, nothing to indicate why, regarding their banter.

Lae'zel is from a militant culture. I mean they have to be since their people were enslaved by the Mindflayers. So they remind me of Spartans where they cull the weak.

So it wasn't personal to Lae'zel. Shadowheart made it personal. Basically Shadowheart was poking the beehive, that Lae'zel responded back.

Also Shadowheart stole the Astral Prism artifact that was from the Gith. And Lae'zel finds out that Shadowheart stole it.

i find funny that you're willing to excuse Lae'zel because of her background but not shadowhearth.

Lae'zel , miss "kill teiflings and release me", lady "let's make a guy that lost a friend to my kin grovel before me "

Dont get me wrong i love both of them and especially how much they can grow, i just dont like the flagrant double standard in display.

That aside, when almost every non-lae'zel githyanki has been shown to be a threath to the party.

[Lamp]

I've noticed the writing falters a lot when it comes to *party* character interactions.

Like when Shadowheart is literally about to murder Lae'zel and you pass the persuasion save and then she gives the "imagine if we turned that hostility to our enemies speech." That is some cringe, Sam Raimi level bad writing right there.

And Gale's cat conversation with no options to *not* be weird and flirty. (And if that's a Gale romance thing then he's still broken, because I literally have not talked to him once in that run aside from giving him items and meeting a certain famous person. Had to long rest and ignore him. He *did* recently send his sex hologram after me in that run, so yeah, pretty sure he's still broken.)

And Wyll and Karlach being 100% ready to kill each other one moment and then dead calm and buddy-buddy the next, "Hah, I was about to full on murder you, but I guess that persuasion check negates adrenaline and we can all sleep now."

And anytime anyone joins the party they all admire them. At the very least they say something along the lines of, "Oh what a shifty character, I sure respect them though."
These things and the player-sexuality of literally every party member really take away from their characters. Like they're all so tolerant and essentially echo the exact same stuff. All so down to bang you regardless of gender that it's weird. Did the illithids only infect bisexual people? That'd be messed up, but it seems like it's exactly what they did.

[Harley]

Originally posted by Lamp:

I've noticed the writing falters a lot when it comes to *party* character interactions.

And Gale's cat conversation with no options to *not* be weird and flirty. (And if that's a Gale romance thing then he's still broken, because I literally have not talked to him once in that run aside from giving him items and meeting a certain famous person. Had to long rest and ignore him. He *did* recently send his sex hologram after me in that run, so yeah, pretty sure he's still broken.)

They did actually change Gale's scene to have options for being his bff. He sends the 'sex hologram' as you call it to camp, requests you join him. SPOILERS - You go and yes, at first it might seem as if he is flirting, but if you stay with the conversation and just be kind, he will ask you to sit with him. He doesn't want to think about blowing himself up, but he also doesn't want to be alone and just wants you there as a friend. So you spend the evening sitting with Gale watching the stars. It is actually kind of sweet now. He also now refers to you in various conversations as his friend.

As for Wyll and Karlach. Wyll was 'hunting a devil' and realized he had been lied to. I'm not a huge fan of the writing, but I get why he did not remain angry at Karlach. It wasn't her fault he'd been lied to as to why he was hunting her. Karlach, being a barbarian, can literally turn that rage on and off (hmmm usually *paladins of tyr*).
I have yet to go into battle with Karlach that she wasn't laughing 'huphup' or saying 'now this is my happy place'. She sees his chasing her as a danger and yet fun - 'running through the hells with the bloody Blade of Frontiers on my tail'. She loves the challenge.
Also, Larian seems to want her to be played off as an idiot, but the girl's got smarts and knows it is not Wyll's fault. She directs her anger at Zareal and Mizora for making Wyll chase her. I haven't heard it, but my son says Wyll and Karlach chat in his camp.. odd conversations like horn-care. OH and major spoiler... if you send just Wyll and Karlach into the hells at the end... during the '6 months later' party Karlach will admit she's fallen in love with him.

[Thorn]

It makes perfect sense that Shadowheart would hate & distrust the Gith, more NPCs should tbh. I mean ask 8th century Englishmen what they thought of the Vikings.

[Dragon Master]

Originally posted by Harley:

Originally posted by Lamp:

I've noticed the writing falters a lot when it comes to *party* character interactions.

And Gale's cat conversation with no options to *not* be weird and flirty. (And if that's a Gale romance thing then he's still broken, because I literally have not talked to him once in that run aside from giving him items and meeting a certain famous person. Had to long rest and ignore him. He *did* recently send his sex hologram after me in that run, so yeah, pretty sure he's still broken.)

They did actually change Gale's scene to have options for being his bff. He sends the 'sex hologram' as you call it to camp, requests you join him. SPOILERS - You go and yes, at first it might seem as if he is flirting, but if you stay with the conversation and just be kind, he will ask you to sit with him. He doesn't want to think about blowing himself up, but he also doesn't want to be alone and just wants you there as a friend. So you spend the evening sitting with Gale watching the stars. It is actually kind of sweet now. He also now refers to you in various conversations as his friend.

As for Wyll and Karlach. Wyll was 'hunting a devil' and realized he had been lied to. I'm not a huge fan of the writing, but I get why he did not remain angry at Karlach. It wasn't her fault he'd been lied to as to why he was hunting her. Karlach, being a barbarian, can literally turn that rage on and off (hmmm usually *paladins of tyr*).
I have yet to go into battle with Karlach that she wasn't laughing 'huphup' or saying 'now this is my happy place'. She sees his chasing her as a danger and yet fun - 'running through the hells with the bloody Blade of Frontiers on my tail'. She loves the challenge.
Also, Larian seems to want her to be played off as an idiot, but the girl's got smarts and knows it is not Wyll's fault. She directs her anger at Zareal and Mizora for making Wyll chase her. I haven't heard it, but my son says Wyll and Karlach chat in his camp.. odd conversations like horn-care. OH and major spoiler... if you send just Wyll and Karlach into the hells at the end... during the '6 months later' party Karlach will admit she's fallen in love with him.

I get that you can have feelings of friendship transmit during the magic lesson, but even then I never make it that far in the dialogue and outright cut it out because the narrator is talking about how this is a moment of intimacy BEFORE we even have a chance of seeing that dialogue.

Add in the body language and it is very, very likely a lot of people never even see the friendship option because everything before that final dialogue options screams romance.

[seeker1]

Dwarves and elves REALLY dislike each other in Middle-Earth. I wouldn't call it 'hatred' so much as they despise and avoid each other.

Yet, by the end of LotR, Gimli and Legolas have a deep friendship.

No doubt about it. Gith culture is ridiculously xenophobic, and, well, poor SH is dealing with induced amnesia and manipulation that tends to make a person distrustful.

This is why watching them change their attitudes, having some character evolution ... is good.