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Immediately causes me to think of South Park lol
I'm not here to disagree, but to agree. I am personally struggling how is it's good to suddenly release thousands of traumatized vamps out in the world. If you get to meet Astarion's "family" before seeing Cazador, you'll hear one of the spawns saying he plans to drain a few mortals dry after Cazador does the ritual to celebrate (because the spawn was under the impression Cazador would free them after the ritual). I know Astarion got a second chance, but how many of the vampire spawns would find a friend/lover that is cool with being used as a snack? Not many. Thousand of mortals would die should the spawn be released. What's the other options? Leave them in the palace with no source of food? That's also cruel. You could refuse to preform the ritual, but still kill the spawn (which is the second best outcome, imo). That is a waste, and I'll explain why.
Killing and taking power away from your master is healing and cathartic, which Astarion admits in the epilogue. Astarion deserves to have his moment in the sun last forever. Being forced back into the shadows after the fight with the brain just feels hollow and souless to me. Plus once he ascends, he becomes more powerful. AND for the final battle, he contributes his Dark Forces to the fight, thus saving more lives in the city. It isn't just the pragmatic choice, but it is the best outcome for Astarion imo. Should you play as an evil Tav who supports his ascension, he sees you as his most beloved consort who rules by his side. He's still so sweet to Tav, and thrills at whatever evil plan you propose.
That depends on how you play. He's still sweet and funny in my evil ascended vampire playthrough.
That's not true. He wants to ascend because he doesn't want to be a slave and in his mind the only way to be free is to be strong enough that no one can ever force him to do things against his will again. He's not greedy he's scared.
When you talk him out of ascending by telling him he's going to become exactly like cazador if he does this he admits you're right and doesn't do it.
Astarion is literally a SA victim working through his trauma over the course of the game. His outward act is mostly just an act he puts on because he doesn't know any other way to behave until you show him differently.
Mind you most of this development is hidden in his romance path but he's one of the best companions to have if you're a dark urge because he COMPLETELY understands being a slave to something you don't know how to resist.
Those things aren't what loyalty is, though. It's easy to be consistent when your entire personality is being a selfish narcissist.
!!!! I agree with a lot of what you've said here! Except for the end. I think almost all of his character development occurs whether you romance him or not. His romance/non-romantic route (imo) are almost completely identical UNLESS you play as the Dark Urge.
People blow him off as the rake, but his whole thing is about unraveling that persona and learning how to be comfortable being afraid.
So overall, both you and Astarion turn completely deranged and evil in the ascension romance, its not a bad thing if that was what you wanted in the first place 💀.
If ascended Astarion actually intends to go and create much in the way of new spawn, then he should be killed later, unless these spawn are supposed to be of higher character than him.
Astarion is a monster that eats people, and doesn't pursue any noble purpose that I am aware of apart from your using him as a weapon. If you don't become the absolute, and can't otherwise control him, you should probably kill him.
Astarion is debateably less evil than Illithid, but you'd basically be making the same justifications to keep him around that you would them.
Leaving him as a spawn doesn't make sense to me. The separation of the ending "good" and "evil" is by no means "bad". The Ascended Astarion is evil and therefore if your character is kind, then you will definitely not get along. Ascended Astarion good for neutral or evil character.
Both way of the relationship are co-dependent. In one case, Astarion depends on you and on your protection, as a spawn he is extremely vulnerable. In the second case, you depend on him because you are his spawn. It's that simple. But keep in mind that Astarion himself sincerely wanted to ascend, and you have to literally persuade him (18 is a big number) not to do it.
He was evil and elite before his fear, consider this. His desire for power was not solely due to fear or a desire to take revenge Cazador. He became a vampire because of a desire for power.
Even if he decides to make them a full vampire your character will still Not. Be. His. Equal. Nobody can because he's an entirely unique being. Perhaps if you stuck a bargain with a devil, gathered up another 7,000 souls, carve runes into their flesh and damn them to the hells, perhaps then you might be at that point.
But do keep in mind that uniqueness he bears could become lonely in time and even create a new kind of torture for Astarion. A void that can never be filled and that could twist and corrupt him further as decade after decade passes him by. What would be his next step after obtaining so much power? What else is there left to do?
Also just because he's a rather merciful master when compared to Cazador right now doesn't change the fact that will always be the case in the future. It's like deluding oneself into thinking it's okay to settle for a less abusive partner and thinking it won't ever get worse. But the thing is it doesn't change the fact that abuse or controlling behavior is still taking place on some level and that's not healthy.
Also, I don't consider the dynamics between the player and an ascended Astarion as true bdsm. Kind of an ick and I lowkey hate how some draw such comparisons. This is due to when in a healthy bdsm relationship communication and boundaries are respected and encouraged. The power a submissive gives their dom can always be taken away completely. In bdsm it is the submissive that holds most if not all the power and it's the dom's job to care for them.
That's not the case between an ascended Astarion and the player. The player only really has two options, Astarion's way, or the player breaks up with him before he can turn them into a spawn. I don't think it's possible to break up fully once you become a spawn. Regardless even if one can break up with him romantically afterwards that doesn't change the fact he will still be your character's master. Well, unless he's dead or lets you become a full vampire the leash will always be there.
But again as a spawn oh sure, he might be nice and give you as much space as your character wants to roam but that can always change in an instant upon his whim. He can always yank you to heel and there will be nothing your character can do to wiggle free.
That's the reality so many people seem to want to ignore.
But the thing is Astarion from the start expresses more when saying he doesn't want to return to the shadows. It's not just about being able to walk in the sunlight. He will say how things feel different now that he's free. If there is any chance to pull him more towards, for lack of a better word, his humanity again he needs to remain a spawn. If you want a true equal partnership where your character's input and opinions will continue to be respected and valued by him, he needs to know there is strength in having some vulnerabilities. That he can count on others to have his back. Sure he didn't have power. But what he also didn't have before were real people he could count on. Nobody came to look for him after Cazador took him. No gods answered his prayers. He might have less power as a spawn but at least he won't become the very thing he hated most (Cazador) if not worse. But most importantly, how is anyone addicted to power truly free?
This all why I will never let him ascend in my game but hey you do you boo. It's your game.
This is such a good breakdown of the whole situation. I played my first playthrough entirely blind and still got the vibes that ascending him was a really bad idea. I was toying with letting him ascend this time but I remembered how grateful he was that the playable character stopped him my first run, that he didn't want to be like Cazador. You also find Cazador's master's skull if you look around Cazador's crypt and realize it's a cyclical pattern of abuse. Having Astarion not ascend breaks the pattern. If you're playing a good character, I'm thinking the best option is to not let Astarion ascend and to kill the 7000 spawn (to put them out of their misery and to save the people they would no doubt kill if you released them).
Also...
... this is a horrible take. Tav is not forcing him to do anything, He/she is pleading for him to not do this. If he doesnt want to listen i cant compel him to change his mind, but that DOES NOT mean that Tav is forced or bound to assist him and Astarion is free to walk away if he doesnt like it.
Also fun fact, Astarion (much like shadowhearth) can reject to do the ritual on his own and go staight to killing Cazador.
I imagine this happens depending on the conversations that you have with him, Shadowhearth has a version of this that if certain conversation/s is/are triggered she will turn around ask Tav what to do with nightsong.
Correct me if I'm wrong but... after you let him ascend and turn your Tav, he states that he gave them a drop of his blood during their turning. Afterwards, you can ask if he still needs to feed on Tav's blood and he says that he will and that Tav will drink his blood as well (it's not an empty promise, he just states it as a fact). So... by Vampire rules, that would mean that your Tav is canonly a true vampire from the start and it's not just a promise (even if this isn't shown in an specific cut scene). So, they aren't a spawn at least. You're right that they won't be his true equal (at least in Vampirism alone) but also puts them far from being a controlled slave in an abusive relationship. But also depends on your Tav and their personality, desires, alignment, etc.
Granted, you're also right that that doesn't mean he can't become worse or that he doesn't have the ability to control them. And he probably will become Cazador 2.0 further on down the road, but that doesn't seem to be the case at the start and that isn't a guaranteed future outcome either.