Missing way too many hits?

[lolschrauber]

In case you wondered why you'd miss 5 hits with a 75% hit chance in a row, the game might just be lying to you:

Here it says 17 spell save DC total:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3026568818

The combat log also includes +3 Charisma bonus, adding up to 20 Spell save DC:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3026568736

Sometimes however, the game does whatever it wants and somehow adds all those numbers up to 12:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3026568797
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3026568775

Right now I only got to test this on Party members and NPCs that were not hostile by default.

Now, If the game shows you a hitchance for a 20 spell save DC, but actually calculates the roll with a 12, of course you'll feel like you miss way too much. According to this [statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu] and if we ignore all bonuses for the sake of the example, your 95% hit chance would turn into a 55% hit chance, which is a ridiculous difference.

I stumbled upon this with my barbarian, which was also missing a +3 bonus on his roll, but I did not keep screenshots of it or tested it further at that point, just brushed it off as me missing something.

[Zygfryd]

Originally posted by lolschrauber:

Good to know. No, in that case, it's a learned Warlock spell

I have to admit I haven't actually tested it, but in 5e when an item gave you some sort of action with a save, it also specified what the DC was.
Looking through my inventory for something to verify with now.

[Aria Athena]

Looks like the game doesn't add your bonuses to the Black Tentacles' dc, when someone is already restrained and are rolling to free themselves.

[sevensided]

I did a quick test with a monk and stunning strike and flurry:topple-

https://i.imgur.com/ulNyx9G.png
https://i.imgur.com/yqso95y.png
https://i.imgur.com/o5o9cMG.png

The last one there is no saving throw because the target died.

But so far, its calculating things correctly, and I can't replicate what you are experiencing. I will try with cleric stuff- plenty of save dcs in their spells.

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Looks like the game doesn't add your bonuses to the Black Tentacles' dc, when someone is already restrained and are rolling to free themselves.

I thought that too, but it is difficult to tell what is initial save and what is escape save.

[lolschrauber]

Originally posted by sevensided:

I did a quick test with a monk and stunning strike and flurry:topple-

https://i.imgur.com/ulNyx9G.png
https://i.imgur.com/yqso95y.png
https://i.imgur.com/o5o9cMG.png

The last one there is no saving throw because the target died.

But so far, its calculating things correctly, and I can't replicate what you are experiencing. I will try with cleric stuff- plenty of save dcs in their spells.

I wouldn't be able to tell you the cause. Noticed it once with my barbarian and now with this spell. I didn't test other spells, I might do that later. Maybe it's even specific to certain types of characters? All NPCs (non-hostile by default) I tried in act 3 got a 12, Karlach gets a 12, Jaheira herself gets the 20.

I tried to wrap my head around just how it ends up on 12, but even if I consider duplicate bonuses not stacking it doesn't make sense.

[Aria Athena]

Originally posted by sevensided:

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Looks like the game doesn't add your bonuses to the Black Tentacles' dc, when someone is already restrained and are rolling to free themselves.

I thought that too, but it is difficult to tell what is initial save and what is escape save.

One is saving throw agains Black Tentacles and the other is saving throw against Condition: Black Tentacles.

[lolschrauber]

Originally posted by Aria Athena:

Looks like the game doesn't add your bonuses to the Black Tentacles' dc, when someone is already restrained and are rolling to free themselves.

When it just says "DC:12" that's the initial roll. But it does calculate something, right? Because the base is 8. But it's not clear what the game does from looking at the log.

[CorwynCorey]

First they must resist YOU... then they must resist the condition of being restrained it seems... which may get progressively easier. Not sure.

Do this in turn based, might help see what happens when.

[Zygfryd]

So I tested Thunderwave from an item, and it does in fact use both your spellcasting modifier and DC bonuses from equipment.

I also reproduced the Black Tentacles result, which claims it does the same, but uses a constant DC.

The way the combat log looks for both is definitely different. For Thunderwave the save is indented under the message for the initial cast. In case of Black Tentacles it's formatted to suggest it's a separate save.

Anyway, definitely looks like a bug, not a conspiracy.

EDIT: My log actually looks reversed... first there's a bunch of saves against the condition, and at the very very end there's a save against the spell itself, which lists DC of 19.

[sevensided]

Did more testing with shatter...

https://i.imgur.com/FWYWiOS.png
https://i.imgur.com/At7EGcu.png


And then faerie fire, against friends...

https://i.imgur.com/VbaWeMn.png
https://i.imgur.com/FDN3eeP.png

And foe...

https://i.imgur.com/F9gI32d.png
https://i.imgur.com/Oqj0qlk.png

Its calculating the DC correctly, and is consistent, it seems friend or foe or neutral. Granted this isn't the most comprehensive test, but so far, I cannot replicate what you're experiencing.

Also- what difficulty are you playing? Not that I think it will make a diff, but there may be baked in alterations to DCs and saving throws at higher or lower difficulties (mine were done at standard diff).

I'll try with some DC boosting items and something that persists.

[lolschrauber]

Originally posted by CorwynCorey:

First they must resist YOU... then they must resist the condition of being restrained it seems... which may get progressively easier. Not sure.

Do this in turn based, might help see what happens when.

Maybe, requires more testing. However that'd still mean the log is completely wrong as it shows but doesn't apply any bonus.

Originally posted by sevensided:

Did more testing with shatter...
Not that I think it will make a diff, but there may be baked in alterations to DCs and saving throws at higher or lower difficulties (mine were done at standard diff).

This save is on medium difficulty

[CorwynCorey]

I am curious...

Originally posted by Zygfryd:

In case of Black Tentacles it's formatted to suggest it's a separate save.

There should be TWO saves for that spell... one to resist the initial cast, then another to get out of the restraints if you failed the first or stayed in the area/moved through it.

Is the second going with a flat dc?

[Zygfryd]

Originally posted by CorwynCorey:

I am curious...

Originally posted by Zygfryd:

In case of Black Tentacles it's formatted to suggest it's a separate save.

There should be TWO saves for that spell... one to resist the initial cast, then another to get out of the restraints if you failed the first or stayed in the area/moved through it.

Is the second going with a flat dc?

Yes, but in my log they were in reverse order.

[CorwynCorey]

To the bug report!

[lolschrauber]

Originally posted by CorwynCorey:

I am curious...

Originally posted by Zygfryd:

In case of Black Tentacles it's formatted to suggest it's a separate save.

There should be TWO saves for that spell... one to resist the initial cast, then another to get out of the restraints if you failed the first or stayed in the area/moved through it.

Is the second going with a flat dc?

Seems super random. I just casted in on Karlach in camp again and both the initial as well as the second cast to free herself did show the bonus but did not calculate it.

[Zygfryd]

Now I tested this in turn-based mode on Withers...

Initial cast: DC12 against "Black Tentacles" (failed)
End of turn check: DC19 against "Black Tentacles" (failed)
...
End of spell check: DC12 against "Black Tentacles" (failed)

Karlachs walks into the tenctales: DC12 against "condition: Black Tentacles" (success)