Divine Intervention and Karlach

[Mimic]

I shouldn't have to say SPOILERS given that this is a place for discussion of the game but there it is. Major SPOILERS ahead.

I am currently unable to post on Larian forums since my VPN makes the system think i am a spam bot so if someone could cross post this i would very much appreciate it.

I am currently in Act 3 playing a Life Cleric of Lathander. I have specifically saved my Divine Intervention feature for a moment that it is needed.

After defeating Gortash we have a conversation with Karlach where she rightfully is freaking out about her imminent death.

During this conversation i receive a Cleric only option where we pray together and Karlach asks if the gods are even listening to my character.

WHERE THE F*** IS MY *DIVINE INTERVENTION* CONVERSATION OPTION!!!

There is no DM in the damn world who would deny a Cleric this opportunity to solve this problem. I can understand not being able to help other characters. Gale is tied to Mystra, Wyll sold his soul, but Karlach did not sell her soul and is not tied to a higher power.

I can think of multiple ways the the *players* could solve this problem in PNP but to deny a Cleric the ability to use Divine Intervention in a strictly RP way is an absolute travesty.

I am not lying when i say that if i wasn't literally off to kill the Elder Brain and thus end the game as my immediate next goal then i would quit playing until a *MOD* released that fixed this crap. It is that stupid and immersion breaking to me.

PLEASE give Clerics the ability to save Karlach via Divine Intervention. I don't care if it's restricted to specific gods and/or the Main Character but it absolutely needs to happen.

[Snazzy]

Completely agree, was hoping that the option would come up knowing that Karlach would need a miracle to save her, so kinda disappointing to see that it went unused because it was never an option to begin with. Hopefully it does get added at some point

[goodbye_bonito]

Problem is not the method you save her, problem is what to do after that. There is no content to show you when Karlach is saved.

Solving her issue itself is not a problem mechanically, we can come up with dozen different ways.

[steelcoresoviet]

Part of the tragedy of Karlach is she's faithless. She has not chosen a divine patron, and thus no one has claim over her soul.

So realistically, you'd first have to convert her to your worship (Lathander would be one of the easy ones, fwiw) then the deity would have to choose to intervene.

[Mimic]

Originally posted by steelcoresoviet:

Part of the tragedy of Karlach is she's faithless. She has not chosen a divine patron, and thus no one has claim over her soul.

So realistically, you'd first have to convert her to your worship (Lathander would be one of the easy ones, fwiw) then the deity would have to choose to intervene.

(The RP Answer)
As a Cleric of Lathander i have before me an individual filled with hope. The purest hope of all in fact. A life filled with tragedy and darkness, her only desire is to experience the joy that is a life unchained from Devils. I a Cleric of Lathander wielding the Blood of Lathander humbly begs that you grant this woman her wish. As one who follows you i say she is worthy and i am willing to submit to anything you ask in order to see her set free.

Should you not take steps to save her my lord she will be forced to make a horrible choice. Either she is forced into the Hells despite making no contract with a Devil or her soul will be destroyed by the infernal device in her chest.

Please my lord here now, grant this hopeless soul hope where there is none to be had. (uses Divine Intervention)
(The RP Answer end)

This is something that isn't properly explained in BG3 as well as 5th edition DnD. In DnD normal people worship whatever god is relevant to the situation. If you are hunting you give a prayer and offering to the gods of the Hunt, if you are a farmer you do the same for the gods of Harvest.

Normal people do not worship a single god, they worship all gods all the time.

A base Cleric doesn't worship any specific god. They worship all gods or a specific subset of gods (aka Good vs Evil) and are granted power by that group of gods.

The base Paladin is similar in that they don't worship a god but rather follow an oath and are granted power by gods who value that oath.

In older editions Clerics and Paladins who followed specific deities received additional powers, abilities, and restrictions based on there god. This is no longer the case with 5th edition and BG3.

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by Mimic:

Originally posted by steelcoresoviet:

Part of the tragedy of Karlach is she's faithless. She has not chosen a divine patron, and thus no one has claim over her soul.

So realistically, you'd first have to convert her to your worship (Lathander would be one of the easy ones, fwiw) then the deity would have to choose to intervene.

(The RP Answer)
As a Cleric of Lathander i have before me an individual filled with hope. The purest hope of all in fact. A life filled with tragedy and darkness and her only desire is to experience the joy that is life unchained from Devils. I a Cleric of Lathander wielding the Blood of Lathander humbly begs that you grant this woman her wish. As one who follows you i say she is worthy and i am willing to submit to anything you ask in order to see her set free.

Should you not take steps to save her my lord she will be forced to make a horrible choice. Either she is forced into the Hells despite making no contract with a Devil or her soul will be destroyed by the infernal device in her chest.

Please my lord here, now, grant this hopeless soul hope where there is none to be had. (uses Divine Intervention)
(The RP Answer end)

This is something that isn't properly explained in BG3 as well as 5th edition DnD. In DnD normal people worship whatever god is relevant to the situation. If you are hunting you give a prayer and offering to the gods of the Hunt, if you are a farmer you do the same for the gods of Harvest.

Normal people do not worship a single god, they worship all gods all the time.

A base Cleric doesn't worship any specific god. They worship "ALL" gods and are granted power by that group of gods.

The base Paladin is similar in that they don't worship a god but rather follow an oath and are granted power by gods who value that oath.

In older editions Clerics and Paladins who followed specific deities received additional powers, abilities, and restrictions based on there god. This is no longer the case with 5th edition and BG3.

From a game perspective, it's giving a lot of power to someone unique.

I'm not familiar with DND per say but what i can guess is that what you want is clearly possible IRL but not though the game medium.

One class could save Karlach but not the others? Unless they had an other way to save her for the others (my ranger was quite sad and i had to convince her to go back to Avernus with will)

[Mizu]

She is faithless and gods in D&D really hate people who are faithless since they need the faith of the faithful to keep existing. A cleric is going to have an uphill struggle convincing their patron to go out of their way to spend that kind of divine mojo on someone who has essentially declared that they want the gods to go ♥♥♥♥ off and die of starvation by opting out of worship completely.

[sleeper]

sounds like a sort of vampire to me

[Kamiyama]

Agree. A cleric should be able to use divine intervention to save Karlach.

What happens if you reroll Karlach and make her a level 10 cleric?

[victorvnv]

Certain mechanics and spells just are too hard to implement in general.

Divine intervention, even resurrection in general are for that reason very limited as else they would be super Overpowered and would just create a lot of issues in a video game.

As this way you can resurrect anyone that is supposed to die, you can save everyone , you can get a quest to kill someone, kill him to get reward then rezz him etc.

You can make the same case about Gale- make him go kill himself and the brain with no risks then Divine intervention and resurrect him and everyone is happy.

Or have the emperor take Orpheus powers then resurrect Orpheus and have them both .

You can’t use Divine intervention in Karlach case because it is not supposed to be her destiny

[Kamiyama]

Originally posted by Mizu:

She is faithless and gods in D&D really hate people who are faithless since they need the faith of the faithful to keep existing. A cleric is going to have an uphill struggle convincing their patron to go out of their way to spend that kind of divine mojo on someone who has essentially declared that they want the gods to go ♥♥♥♥ off and die of starvation by opting out of worship completely.

Not every deity is like Darth Vader. I think Lathander would love to bring in new faithful with a little show of mercy.

https://youtu.be/m0XuKORufGk?si=Fsz_jQpmCHJIXUJR

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by Kamiyama:

Agree. A cleric should be able to use divine intervention to save Karlach.

What happens if you reroll Karlach and make her a level 10 cleric?

Karlach has an history and it won't move whatever class you would change her. The game adapts to your decisions but not to this point or it will ruin the story.

[Mimic]

Originally posted by Grumpy:

Originally posted by Mimic:

From a game perspective, it's giving a lot of power to someone unique.

I'm not familiar with DND per say but what i can guess is that what you want is clearly possible IRL but not though the game medium.

One class could save Karlach but not the others? Unless they had an other way to save her for the others (my ranger was quite sad and i had to convince her to go back to Avernus with will)

I would argue that giving a certain class the ability to save Karlach is an excellent choice. Not every Class/Background/Race should be capable of solving every problem. It adds flavor and importance to the choices made in game when you restrict these options.

For example Viconia in either BG1 or 2 i can't remember had both Strength, Race, and Sex requirements for her romance.

I would in fact love for this specific save Karlach path to be restricted to Clerics of specific gods as i think that adds flavor.

[Mimic]

Originally posted by Mizu:

She is faithless and gods in D&D really hate people who are faithless since they need the faith of the faithful to keep existing. A cleric is going to have an uphill struggle convincing their patron to go out of their way to spend that kind of divine mojo on someone who has essentially declared that they want the gods to go ♥♥♥♥ off and die of starvation by opting out of worship completely.

Karlach is not faithless she has just lost hope that anyone or anything can save her. There is a difference between those who don't believe the gods help mortals and those who believe the gods are not real.

[Grumpy]

Originally posted by Mimic:

Originally posted by Grumpy:

I would argue that giving a certain class the ability to save Karlach is an excellent choice. Not every Class/Background/Race should be capable of solving every problem. It adds flavor and importance to the choices made in game when you restrict these options.

For example Viconia in either BG1 or 2 i can't remember had both Strength, Race, and Sex requirements for her romance.

I would in fact love for this specific save Karlach path to be restricted to Clerics of specific gods as i think that adds flavor.

Well if you follow the threads regarding Karlach ending, a lot of people aren't taking it well.

While i appreciate the idea, Larian wouldn't split his player base by giving the choice to only one class to save a beloved companion of many. Marketing wise it wouldn't be a good idea.

Now if the others classes needed to work harder than the clerics for the same result yes it would balanced it out.

[paladin765]

I agree. It should be perfectly possible for a Cleric character to use divine intervention to save her. In a true rpg that's wtf that kind of powerful magic is used for.