HIdden damage multipliers and "hidden" conditions?

[Frostfeather]

The Chilled condition is easy to apply via Mourning Frost. If a Chilled target becomes Wet (extremely easy to apply with no save via thrown water or Create Water), then they always become Frozen.

Frozen says if you hit the target with Bludgeoning, Thunder, or Force damage, the ice shatters, ending the condition. It *doesn't* tell you that these damage types do double damage when shattering the target.

My questions are:

1 - How are we supposed to know that Chilled + Wet = Frozen? Neither Chilled nor Wet say anything about this.

2 - How are we supposed to know that Frozen makes targets Vulnerable (+100% damage) to Bludgeoning/Thuder/Force? It doesn't say this anywhere.

3 - What if we don't want to lose Wet? This happens to me constantly - my group uses a lot of Lightning damage that relies on Wet for +100% damage. My White Draconic Sorcerer had to take Mourning Frost off because Frozen was interfering with that damage boost for others. Terrible design.

4 - What other hidden damage multipliers are there? Other ways of applying Vulnerability that the game doesn't tell you about?

5 - And what other "hidden" conditions or combo conditions are there like Chilled + Wet are there?

Adding 6 - what is the point of Frozen anyway beyond the hidden Vulnerability? It ends at the start of the enemy's next turn and doesn't stop them from moving or taking actions.

[Zerasie]

Guess the devs wanted you to find these hidden tricks after using some combinations of spells and have an epiphany

[RhodosGuard]

Reminds me of how in Dragon Age: Origins, when using Certain Spells while other certain Spells were active you'd unlock a hidden bonus (iirc you could "Drain life" on an enemy that you made weak to magic to improve that life draining spell)

But to address the point:

1. Secrets are there to be uncovered. It makes kinda sense that if an enemy is magically chilled, any water splashed onto them would freeze from that magic.
2. Actually any condition that applies vulnerable to an enemy is reflected in their "Resistances" section with a red arrow
3. Use less Frost Damage if your party relies on lightning damage?
Next you tell me it's unfair that ice magic freezes water on the ground because you wanted to electrocute the water
4. Haven't experimented that way.
5. DOnt know havent really used wet a lot because throwing water or casting create water are actions I didnt wanna use when I can cast Spirit Guardians or Glyph of Warind.

But I will use Wet on my current Storm Sorcerer

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

Reminds me of how in Dragon Age: Origins, when using Certain Spells while other certain Spells were active you'd unlock a hidden bonus (iirc you could "Drain life" on an enemy that you made weak to magic to improve that life draining spell)

But to address the point:

1. Secrets are there to be uncovered. It makes kinda sense that if an enemy is magically chilled, any water splashed onto them would freeze from that magic.
2. Actually any condition that applies vulnerable to an enemy is reflected in their "Resistances" section with a red arrow
3. Use less Frost Damage if your party relies on lightning damage?
Next you tell me it's unfair that ice magic freezes water on the ground because you wanted to electrocute the water
4. Haven't experimented that way.
5. DOnt know havent really used wet a lot because throwing water or casting create water are actions I didnt wanna use when I can cast Spirit Guardians or Glyph of Warind.

But I will use Wet on my current Storm Sorcerer

The communication is inconsistent though. Wet specifically says it makes targets Vulnerable, Chilled specifically says it makes targets Vulnerable, but Frozen does not. It's not reasonable to expect people to check Resistances after every action to see if something changed.

As for just "using less Frost Damage", that's not a solution. My main character is a Draconic Sorcerer focused on using cold spells, and the issue isn't cold spells... it's the fact that Mourning Frost applies a debuff that removes Vulnerability without warning me. I shouldn't have to drop a specially crafted legendary weapon perfect for my main character just because I can't control Chilled - and there's no warning about the interaction with Wet.

[RhodosGuard]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

Reminds me of how in Dragon Age: Origins, when using Certain Spells while other certain Spells were active you'd unlock a hidden bonus (iirc you could "Drain life" on an enemy that you made weak to magic to improve that life draining spell)

But to address the point:

1. Secrets are there to be uncovered. It makes kinda sense that if an enemy is magically chilled, any water splashed onto them would freeze from that magic.
2. Actually any condition that applies vulnerable to an enemy is reflected in their "Resistances" section with a red arrow
3. Use less Frost Damage if your party relies on lightning damage?
Next you tell me it's unfair that ice magic freezes water on the ground because you wanted to electrocute the water
4. Haven't experimented that way.
5. DOnt know havent really used wet a lot because throwing water or casting create water are actions I didnt wanna use when I can cast Spirit Guardians or Glyph of Warind.

But I will use Wet on my current Storm Sorcerer

The communication is inconsistent though. Wet specifically says it makes targets Vulnerable, Chilled specifically says it makes targets Vulnerable, but Frozen does not. It's not reasonable to expect people to check Resistances after every action to see if something changed.

As for just "using less Frost Damage", that's just silly. My main character is a Draconic Sorcerer focused on using cold spells, and the issue isn't cold spells... it's the fact that Mourning Frost applies a debuff that removes Vulnerability without warning me. I shouldn't have to remove a specially crafted legendary weapon perfect for my main character just because I can't control Chilled - and there's no warning about the interaction with Wet.

You can at any point press T over enemies to read their Stats.
Gamechanger tbh.

Just. Learn? Now you know what happens. You either use Frost, or you use Lightning, you clearly cant use both when you want to keep playing as you do.

YOu have 3 options.
Keep doing what you do and complain about it.
Change what you do to circumvent the situation.
Uninstall the game because you cant play a party that relies on 2 contradicting elements.

It's like complaining that water extinguishes enemies that are burning, because you want to use fire and lightning and you need wet for lightning and burning for fire damage.

These things just dont work together, probably to block this exact situations where enemies are vulnerable to too many damage types.
But here's my question. Wet already makes enemies vulnerable to cold. Why do you insist you need to use mourning frost for chilled?

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

Originally posted by night4:

The communication is inconsistent though. Wet specifically says it makes targets Vulnerable, Chilled specifically says it makes targets Vulnerable, but Frozen does not. It's not reasonable to expect people to check Resistances after every action to see if something changed.

As for just "using less Frost Damage", that's just silly. My main character is a Draconic Sorcerer focused on using cold spells, and the issue isn't cold spells... it's the fact that Mourning Frost applies a debuff that removes Vulnerability without warning me. I shouldn't have to remove a specially crafted legendary weapon perfect for my main character just because I can't control Chilled - and there's no warning about the interaction with Wet.

You can at any point press T over enemies to read their Stats.
Gamechanger tbh.

Just. Learn? Now you know what happens. You either use Frost, or you use Lightning, you clearly cant use both when you want to keep playing as you do.

YOu have 3 options.
Keep doing what you do and complain about it.
Change what you do to circumvent the situation.
Uninstall the game because you cant play a party that relies on 2 contradicting elements.

It's like complaining that water extinguishes enemies that are burning, because you want to use fire and lightning and you need wet for lightning and burning for fire damage.

These things just dont work together, probably to block this exact situations where enemies are vulnerable to too many damage types.
But here's my question. Wet already makes enemies vulnerable to cold. Why do you insist you need to use mourning frost for chilled?

I've been examining enemies throughout the game, that's not the issue here. Expecting the game to be consistent about communicating Vulnerability is reasonable.

And did you even look at Mourning Frost? I'm not using it for Chilled. I'm using it for all the other stuff it gives cold spells. Wet has no save and is easy to apply, while Chilled has a save and is cannot be applied by other party members (at least not easily). Obviously a cold based caster will usually want Wet to persist for the extra damage to kill an enemy vs Frozen which just ends the next enemy turn anyway.

That's the other issue: Frozen doesn't actually prevent enemies from taking their turn. So it just ends Wet for no benefit to a cold caster. It's all poor design.

[RhodosGuard]

Originally posted by night4:

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

You can at any point press T over enemies to read their Stats.
Gamechanger tbh.

Just. Learn? Now you know what happens. You either use Frost, or you use Lightning, you clearly cant use both when you want to keep playing as you do.

YOu have 3 options.
Keep doing what you do and complain about it.
Change what you do to circumvent the situation.
Uninstall the game because you cant play a party that relies on 2 contradicting elements.

It's like complaining that water extinguishes enemies that are burning, because you want to use fire and lightning and you need wet for lightning and burning for fire damage.

These things just dont work together, probably to block this exact situations where enemies are vulnerable to too many damage types.
But here's my question. Wet already makes enemies vulnerable to cold. Why do you insist you need to use mourning frost for chilled?

I've been examining enemies throughout the game, that's not the issue here. Expecting the game to be consistent about communicating Vulnerability is reasonable.

And did you even look at Mourning Frost? I'm not using it for Chilled. I'm using it for all the other stuff it gives cold spells. Wet has no save and is easy to apply, while Chilled has a save and is cannot be applied by other party members (at least not easily). Obviously a cold based caster will usually want Wet to persist for the extra damage to kill an enemy vs Frozen which just ends the next enemy turn anyway.

That's the other issue: Frozen doesn't actually prevent enemies from taking their turn. So it just ends Wet for no benefit to a cold caster. It's all poor design.

Then either use a different staff or dont use wet.
it's easy. And if you dont wanna do either, because you think it's "bad design" then that's a you problem.

I repeatedly, like 4 times, failed the assault on moonrise because Jaheira Cast Icestorm , the ice melted, I was using the "Water electrocutes when you walk into it, and when the fight ended the water was still electrocuted and the harpers took damage and they all attacked me. And I did not come here to whine about unfair it is, I took the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ boots off, and only put them back on when no NPCs where there.

Your personal feelings dont matter.
I can give you at most to add "is vulnerable to xyz" to frozen but everything else is just "Wha wha wha the game refuses to let me cheese fights with Wet and lightning damage and this one very specific item"

[Frostfeather]

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

Originally posted by night4:

I've been examining enemies throughout the game, that's not the issue here. Expecting the game to be consistent about communicating Vulnerability is reasonable.

And did you even look at Mourning Frost? I'm not using it for Chilled. I'm using it for all the other stuff it gives cold spells. Wet has no save and is easy to apply, while Chilled has a save and is cannot be applied by other party members (at least not easily). Obviously a cold based caster will usually want Wet to persist for the extra damage to kill an enemy vs Frozen which just ends the next enemy turn anyway.

That's the other issue: Frozen doesn't actually prevent enemies from taking their turn. So it just ends Wet for no benefit to a cold caster. It's all poor design.

Then either use a different staff or dont use wet.
it's easy. And if you dont wanna do either, because you think it's "bad design" then that's a you problem.

I repeatedly, like 4 times, failed the assault on moonrise because Jaheira Cast Icestorm , the ice melted, I was using the "Water electrocutes when you walk into it, and when the fight ended the water was still electrocuted and the harpers took damage and they all attacked me. And I did not come here to whine about unfair it is, I took the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ boots off, and only put them back on when no NPCs where there.

Your personal feelings dont matter.
I can give you at most to add "is vulnerable to xyz" to frozen but everything else is just "Wha wha wha the game refuses to let me cheese fights with Wet and lightning damage and this one very specific item"

I already know how to deal with the problem: I just finished the game with that group.

Not reading this though because you're kinda missing the point here: I'm looking for other instances of poor communication or combinations so people (and I) can deal with or exploit those.

[Frostfeather]

To kind of answer part of my own question: Frozen can at least prevent Reactions and force Concentration loss. I still wonder if Frozen is intended to make the target actually lose a turn, since it's relatively difficult to apply the condition.

Might be a bug.