Another moral question: Halsin

[Estevan Valladares]

Is it wrong to let Halsin die ?
I mean, Oliver make a really good case about the land.
He was left alone, and people left the curse grow because they were not wanting to simply go after the nightsong, which you get to know it is easy to find. Ancient scriptures in the temple tell as much.
It is like a "red light" district idea: There is no preventing people from manifesting a dark side if they choose to, so give them a place to, so they wont do it all over the place.
Why not leave the dark souls in the dark lands to do their dark deeds ?
As Laezel says: cull the weak.
I say, leave Halsin to die in the portal and think about harassing friends with his horny bear form.

[victorvnv]

I chose Minthara over Halsin any day any time, Halsin is both gay and into beastiary sex and tried to hook up with me even when I had Shadowheart as a gf already.

Plus Jaheira is way better looking and funnier as a companion,and Minthara is times more useful in combat let’s not forget way better looking too

[FoxFox]

Probably better to delete this thread before you get reported

[Ka-mai19]

Originally posted by victorvnv:

I chose Minthara over Halsin any day any time, Halsin is both gay and into beastiary sex and tried to hook up with me even when I had Shadowheart as a gf already.

Plus Jaheira is way better looking and funnier as a companion,and Minthara is times more useful in combat let’s not forget way better looking too

It's a tragedy that you can't romance Jaheira.

[victorvnv]

Originally posted by caev91:

Originally posted by victorvnv:

I chose Minthara over Halsin any day any time, Halsin is both gay and into beastiary sex and tried to hook up with me even when I had Shadowheart as a gf already.

Plus Jaheira is way better looking and funnier as a companion,and Minthara is times more useful in combat let’s not forget way better looking too

It's a tragedy that you can't romance Jaheira.

I second that, she is hot even tho she’s old, has awesome personality, is funny and is a joy to have around. As the dark urge , she even came one night and stayed next to me to watch me so that I know I am not alone .

But of course you can’t romance her- but hey if you want sex with a Druid you get to romance Halsin in a bear form lol

[Estevan Valladares]

Third that, Jahera is the MIL but cant F.
Now, I am curious, FoxFox, why would this thread be a problem ?
And about Minthara, it is not her "idea" that is bad, but I dont like how her companionship develops. If it was a better tale, a better companion in battle, and a better asset for dialogue kill, maybe, but she is "blant".
Plus, while Halsin is annoying and can be left in the camp if you want, just solving the shadow problem, Minthara is just not an asset, but becomes a Liability if you are not being "True Soul". I like infiltration just like the next Rogue, but that entails pretending to be good too, not only pretending to be bad. Minthara adds what any lawful character adds: Rigidity.

I want to be and pretend to be anything my goal needs, and Minthara, Karlach and Shadowheart are a hindrance.

I wish they allowed for having multiple hirelings at one, so I could get rid of Karlach too before Act 3.

[PaloG]

Originally posted by Estevan Valladares:

I mean, Oliver make a really good case about the land.
He was left alone, and people left the curse grow because they were not wanting to simply go after the nightsong, which you get to know it is easy to find. Ancient scriptures in the temple tell as much.

A) The nightsong has almost nothing to do with the curse other than actually counter it to some effect(seen as isobel stops being able to protect the Inn if Nightsong is sacrificed) and is in no way associated with it as public/fringe knowledge. The Curse originates from Ketheric/Shar and as clearly shown Aylin alone is not able to take him on since he recaptures her and you have to free her again. Nevermind that it's not common knowledge she's there as Lorroakan sends Aradin and co. at a completely wrong location to find her.

B) To get to the Mausoleum and actually reveal the secret entrance to the Temple you need to get through the thickest part of the shadow curse for which you require a Moonlantern which is something that Balthazar creates and noone else knows how to make it as of before the game events.

C) The Gauntlet of Shar is nothing BUT easy lorewise. It's supposedly a training/proving ground for an elite section of the church of Shar and the home of an Orthon who, again lorewise, is not a lesser devil. But it is a video game we have to beat so we're gigachads and do it with little to no trouble. The place isn't easy, we're ridiculously powered.

D) And most importantly the entrance to the Shadowfell is not an open invitation but there is direct control exerted by Shar on who can and cannot enter and exit. Balthazar for example was unable to go inside and can only do so when he practically "hitches a ride" with you since you're going with Her Chosen. And while exiting, if you free Aylin, Shar keeps Shadowheart trapped and tortures her for a while before casting her out.

Originally posted by Estevan Valladares:

It is like a "red light" district idea: There is no preventing people from manifesting a dark side if they choose to, so give them a place to, so they wont do it all over the place.
Why not leave the dark souls in the dark lands to do their dark deeds ?

Because there's a big difference between showing leeway to the formation of let's say a criminal organisation like the Guild that creates a symbiotic relationship with the city and a cursed land of undeath. People dying to the curse don't just die but become undead/shadow abominations and their souls don't move on to the afterlife that is a cannonical thing in Forgotten Realms. So no, not a moral choice to leave the curse lingering and therefore trap all its past and future victims in mindless undeath.

[victorvnv]

Originally posted by Estevan Valladares:

Third that, Jahera is the MIL but cant F.
Now, I am curious, FoxFox, why would this thread be a problem ?
And about Minthara, it is not her "idea" that is bad, but I dont like how her companionship develops. If it was a better tale, a better companion in battle, and a better asset for dialogue kill, maybe, but she is "blant".
Plus, while Halsin is annoying and can be left in the camp if you want, just solving the shadow problem, Minthara is just not an asset, but becomes a Liability if you are not being "True Soul". I like infiltration just like the next Rogue, but that entails pretending to be good too, not only pretending to be bad. Minthara adds what any lawful character adds: Rigidity.

I want to be and pretend to be anything my goal needs, and Minthara, Karlach and Shadowheart are a hindrance.

I wish they allowed for having multiple hirelings at one, so I could get rid of Karlach too before Act 3.

To me Minthara was my best and most useful companion until the end. A paladin, high charisma to get me good bargains, I made her 6 pal/ 6 sorcerer and she was destroying stuff on top of twin spell haste in combat.

I agree that unlike Halsin who you barely do anything and he comes at you trying to give you his D, with Minthara it was really hard to get her approval and at the end even though she was always with me and I always said the things she liked, my approval rate was only “good” so didn’t even saw how a full romance goes.

However she still is better to look at than Halsin or any of the other men trying to hit on me, plus her sex scene in camp after we defeated the druids was pretty hot .

Also she is the only companion that comes with several illithid powers ready so it’s very easy to develop her Illini’s tree from there.

And she has zero need for Persuation to get her the improved illithid in act 3.

Also she is rather even minded all things considered and her insight is usually spot on.

For example when I asked her what she thinks about Shadowheart, she said that it is best for the team if she bends the knee to Shar , but it is best for Shadowheart if she gets rid of her.

Even in the end she admitted that she is grateful that I saved her and told me she knows that if I chose not to side with her she would have been just another victim of my crusade and never even remembered but thanks to me she got so far .

Overall I enjoyed her a lot as my ally, too bad they didn’t properly developed her romance and approval arc, again, with Jaheira on board there is no need for another Druid in Halsin and Minthara is just a lot more interesting and better looking than Halsin to begin with, so it’s a missed chance to give us another good female romance opption

[Estevan Valladares]

The nightsong has nothing to do with the curse, lol.
The nightsong is what keeps the darkness. It is perpetuated by the imprisonment of the DarkSinger, which among other things keep Ketric immortal. Should you silence the Nightsong, Ketric becomes mortal again.
That is what you do when you free the Nightsinger, which is what became of the daughter of Selune, as she is the one whose power feeds the nightsong.
That is actually one of the first things she says when you free her.

Really ? Is it that uncommon for people playing this game to read ?

Following up on an somewhat unrelated but still reading issue...

Crime is only crime because the law says so. Once it doesnt, it isnt.
Sins are only sins if your "beliefs" say so. If they dont, they arent.

So a criminal organization is any organization that does things the law forbid or regulate against their practices. There is nothing "moral" in it. The moral might be compass with which the law is created, but living in our real World one might know that is not the case, not always, and to some, not in most cases.

Using "crime" as a moral argument is, again, like saying Diablo players will like Diablo immortal because they have phones. It is the famous combo "Non Sequitur" and "circulus in probando", you get two things that arent related, and make one justify the other. It is a crime because it is immoral, and it is immoral because it is a crime.

That is exactly the problem here. The denizens of the darkness might not have chosen it, by "some people's standards", but that does not mean they dislike it.

Thomas Sowell talk about that when he talks about the activists. In some instances you can almost hear activists talking in a way to perpetuate the problem, because without the problem, there is no need to activism.

Same thing: Violence will never end if for each thing you deem violent ceasing, you start naming another thing violence.

[PaloG]

Originally posted by Estevan Valladares:

The nightsong is what keeps the darkness. It is perpetuated by the imprisonment of the DarkSinger, which among other things keep Ketric immortal. Should you silence the Nightsong, Ketric becomes mortal again.

Exactly, Ketheric who is the anchor of the curse, becomes mortal and you are able to kill him. Which is why there is a second part to my point that Aylin couldn't do it alone and you had to do it yourself as she just gets captured again. Yes, Ketheric siphoning Aylin's immortality is a factor perpetuating the curse but that doesn't make Aylin is a part of the curse, any other immortal could be there. And once again there is no evidence to show there is broader knowledge in the game that the Nightsong is in any way linked to the curse even in this indirect way(yes, Ketheric and some of his minions know obviously, as well as the Sharrans and neither of those factions were about to reveal it to anyone else). Even Jaheira and Halsin who were there when the curse started and possibly have one of the most extensive knowledge of it, as Halsin supposedly made it his life's work to undo it, have no indication of any correlation between the two, and you only find out when you get to the actual location which again is a quite hard thing to do. The only one that seems to have knowledge of it outside of Ketheric and co. is Lorroakan and that appears to be out of dumb luck cause he was researching the Nightsong extensively, and not the curse, and was probably able to piece two and two together, even if he couldn't accurately find the location.

Also btw you don't free the Nightsinger, that's another title for Shar.

[Estevan Valladares]

Yeah, I put Darksinger (not actually said nightsinger) but I was thinking about the nightsong, which is the pretty blonde.

[PaloG]

Originally posted by Estevan Valladares:

Crime is only crime because the law says so. Once it doesnt, it isnt.
Sins are only sins if your "beliefs" say so. If they dont, they arent.

So a criminal organization is any organization that does things the law forbid or regulate against their practices. There is nothing "moral" in it. The moral might be compass with which the law is created, but living in our real World one might know that is not the case, not always, and to some, not in most cases.

Using "crime" as a moral argument is, again, like saying Diablo players will like Diablo immortal because they have phones. It is the famous combo "Non Sequitur" and "circulus in probando", you get two things that arent related, and make one justify the other. It is a crime because it is immoral, and it is immoral because it is a crime.

That is exactly the problem here. The denizens of the darkness might not have chosen it, by "some people's standards", but that does not mean they dislike it.

Thomas Sowell talk about that when he talks about the activists. In some instances you can almost hear activists talking in a way to perpetuate the problem, because without the problem, there is no need to activism.

Same thing: Violence will never end if for each thing you deem violent ceasing, you start naming another thing violence.

Yeah, kinda went there cause of the red light district mention which most commonly are areas that operate on the fringe of legality if not outright illegal and "overlooked". There are obviously legal and famous places like these i.e. Amsterdam, Hamburg etc. but those are mostly the exception and not the rule.
And no, my intention was not to equate legality and morality cause absolutely, we're in perfect agreement on this, they don't always go hand in hand. i.e. killing is illegal but is assisting voluntary termination on a terminal patient moral or not? we are doing it to animals after all, who they can't even consent, so why not humans? Some will say yes, some will say no. Not to even mention the quite recent debacle on abortions in the US among other examples.

And you say the denizens of the darkness may not have chosen it but not dislike it but there is absolutely no indication they're even aware and capable of thinking anymore, much less liking or disliking anything. In fact the opposite is outlined since people that even held you in high regard and have shown no violent desires, such as Alfira or Dammon, will instantly try to attack you the moment the Inn falls, strongly implying that whatever it was that made them them instantly gets eliminated.