Do people not understand the writing? (Spoilers ig)

[女王 [Queen]]

As people reach act 3 or finish the game, I have noticed an influx of not really critiques but people who just completely miss what the game is getting across through its actually really good writing.
A key example is The Emperor, a lot of people are saying his betrayal and siding with the netherbrain if u free Orpheus is dumb or out of character, but it is one of those things where if you actually pay attention to the story- It is perfectly in character for him. He's a selfish, egotistical, self preservation focused, power hungry soulless husk aka a mindflayer. The way the game handles him is a BRILLIANT way to write a manipulator, to the point these players who call his betrayal idiotic or out of character got manipulated/fooled in the end.
This extends to other characters as well, from people's surface level interpretation of Shadowheart/Jenevelle as an evil aligned prick to assuming Lae'zel is also just outright evil cuz gith. It is actually really cool how the game has managed to turn a person's preconceptions of given races, religions, etc. into a weapon to manipulate the player's choices and their emotions. It is great writing in my opinion, and says alot of good about how Larian handled this world and its characters. Because even I after the ending was fooled by the Emperor, I had to step back and really examine his motivations before I understood that he fooled me and I was almost manipulated into giving him what he wanted.

[Cyvanhoe]

Originally posted by Noctoculus:

If there was any intention of creating morally grey characters and questioning "are all mind flayers implicity evil?" they failed. They are all evil and the Gith should wipe them out.

They didn't. That's why they present the Emperor as a savior at first, but every little thing you find out peels the onion more and more, until you find out his actual selfish reasons, and him being okay enslaving others (Orpheus) to achieve his entirely selfish goals.

Yes, he wants to be free of the brains control. And that is all. He doesn't do what he does so that Faerun would not become a Mindflayer world. He does it because he doesn't want to be a pawn in that world to the brain.

"To hell with people, 'I' want to be free, no matter the risk or methods." That, my friends, is what is called a 'neutral evil' alignment if I ever saw one.

[女王 [Queen]]

Originally posted by Yuuki:

In my game, he did not take over the brain or betray me, so I do think his final route/choices depend on your relationship with him. At least from your comments vs my game it seems that way. I mean, he's still out for himslef and power and happy to be a mindflayer, but he was happy with his freedom and simply parted ways as friends with my party.
But then, if I chose to betray him, by freeing Orpheus, then he was very clear about what he does to 'friend' who go against him ;) So I don't see how either is bad writing, he's just a complex guy :P

Its not bad writing at all, its pretty damned good

[Noctoculus]

Originally posted by Cyvanhoe:

Yes, he wants to be free of the brains control. And that is all. He doesn't do what he does so that Faerun would not become a Mindflayer world. He does it because he doesn't want to be a pawn in that world to the brain.

"To hell with people, 'I' want to be free, no matter the risk or methods." That, my friends, is what is called a 'neutral evil' alignment if I ever saw one.

And it's bad writing / unfinished because he immediately join the Elder Brain if you try to reason with him.

[女王 [Queen]]

Originally posted by Cyvanhoe:

Originally posted by Noctoculus:

If there was any intention of creating morally grey characters and questioning "are all mind flayers implicity evil?" they failed. They are all evil and the Gith should wipe them out.

They didn't. That's why they present the Emperor as a savior at first, but every little thing you find out peels the onion more and more, until you find out his actual selfish reasons, and him being okay enslaving others (Orpheus) to achieve his entirely selfish goals.

Yes, he wants to be free of the brains control. And that is all. He doesn't do what he does so that Faerun would not become a Mindflayer world. He does it because he doesn't want to be a pawn in that world to the brain.

"To hell with people, 'I' want to be free, no matter the risk or methods." That, my friends, is what is called a 'neutral evil' alignment if I ever saw one.

I find it interesting how his counter arguments are exactly what The Emperor was trying to convince him of

[女王 [Queen]]

Originally posted by Noctoculus:

Originally posted by Cyvanhoe:

Yes, he wants to be free of the brains control. And that is all. He doesn't do what he does so that Faerun would not become a Mindflayer world. He does it because he doesn't want to be a pawn in that world to the brain.

"To hell with people, 'I' want to be free, no matter the risk or methods." That, my friends, is what is called a 'neutral evil' alignment if I ever saw one.

And it's bad writing / unfinished because he immediately join the Elder Brain if you try to reason with him.

How

[Noctoculus]

Originally posted by .chr:

Originally posted by Noctoculus:

And it's bad writing / unfinished because he immediately join the Elder Brain if you try to reason with him.

How

Because his actions contradict his motives.

[女王 [Queen]]

Originally posted by Noctoculus:

Originally posted by .chr:

How

Because his actions contradict his motives.

How

[Cyvanhoe]

Originally posted by Noctoculus:

And it's bad writing / unfinished because he immediately join the Elder Brain if you try to reason with him.

Yeah, because as I very elaborately had pointed out, not being dead is quite a big deal to him. I dare say, him being unwilling to make the noble sacrifice is what got him into this whole mess in the first place.

Check my former post as to why joining the brain again is the ONLY other option he sees to save his tentacles there, and why he'd prefer even THAT over taking the selfless and heroic sacrifice.

[Tootsy]

The emperor is not the singular or primary plot problem with act 3.

As a manipulator there is no way he should be going to the elder brain in any circumstance where he has other choices, leaving? yes. Joining the netherbrain? He values his individuality far too much to return to a hive mind. he would know the brain would use him as fodder if it means its own survival, his life is not tied to the netherbrain, so when he leaves he should have left to somewhere outside of the brains influence (unless that is outside the distance he can travel). His ultimate ambition appears to be harvesting Orpheus's brain, and become an elder brain himself, joining another elder brain's hive mind would literally be saying "screw it" to any possible goal he had.

If we have gained maximum trust with his character it makes for more sense for him to believe that we would protect him if things with Orpheus get out of hand when freeing him. He might not like it, but that is his best option to retain his individuality and self determination. He has shown the ability to instantly leave if he needs to, there is no reason someone so calculating to be that rash, remember he is a mindflayer emotions aren't a thing for him.

For someone who supposedly can calculate all options as quickly as him, he didn't look at his options to well before the big choice.

Did he even try to manipulate any of our companions to stop us from freeing Orpheus or use his guardians images to do likewise? This one I honestly don't know because I had max influence with everyone in my party.

The reaction we got is what I would expect a sociopath to take, not a psychopath.

[Abisha]

so how did Empire get broken free in the first place not ones but twice.
if Orpheus was already captured why do the others not being shielded? "again nonsense"
if Orpheus was captured and put in place by the empire he did not need it in the first place?.

if the netherbrain is so endboss how come 3 idiots get it enslaved in the first place?.
sounds like a marvel complot here, thanos have 5 stones and still get beaten.

Shar and lzezel ain't anything special other RPG have a path of redemption it's basic RPG stuff. (also evil is just a matter of perspective) especially if their is no alignment system in place.

[orthostatic]

Emperor seemed genuinely not-entirely-illithid because he failed to anticipate betrayal at the last moment, even with the faculties that enabled him to compete with Mother Brain in terms of predictive analysis.

Emperor seemed like faulty Illithid that should've just been flushed, though I suppose it's good for our characters that he wasn't.

[Noctoculus]

Originally posted by Cyvanhoe:

Originally posted by Noctoculus:

And it's bad writing / unfinished because he immediately join the Elder Brain if you try to reason with him.

Yeah, because as I very elaborately had pointed out, not being dead is quite a big deal to him. I dare say, him being unwilling to make the noble sacrifice is what got him into this whole mess in the first place.

Check my former post as to why joining the brain again is the ONLY other option he sees to save his tentacles there, and why he'd prefer even THAT over taking the selfless and heroic sacrifice.

"I'll do anything to survive" "I need PC to survive" "My individuality is necessary to survive"

"I will sacrifice my individuality to oppose Orpheus" *dies*

[Cyvanhoe]

Originally posted by Noctoculus:

"I'll do anything to survive" "I need PC to survive" "My individuality is necessary to survive"

"I will sacrifice my individuality to oppose Orpheus" *dies*

"I'll do anything to survive"
Yep, spot on, that is his ultimate reasoning.

"I need PC to survive"
Incorrect, and he is aware of that. He does NOT need them to survive, at all. He even actually expects them to betray him at some point, which is why he never even planned to reveal his true identity as a mindflayer in the first place. He only does when there was NO other option for his survival, with the honor guard about to free the one who'd kill him in an instant.

"I will sacrifice my individuality to oppose Orpheus"
It's not about opposing Orpheus. It's about not getting his head smashed in for enslaving and abusing Orpheus for as long as he did. And, just a moment before, he was made aware that his 'individuality' was given back to him by the brain in the first place. He did not escape its grasp, IT LET HIM FLEE. So, obviously, his chances of actually staying alive are 10000% better with the brain than his mind-rape victim about to be freed.

[Noxclo]

I also think the writing surrounding the emperor is really subtle. In BG3 there is no "good" race and "bad" race. Like you can't point to the githyanki and immediately say that they are going to be bad, just like you can't point to any of the humans and assume they're going to be good. I think D&D kind of asks us to do this, so this is an interesting departure from the norm. When the onus is on a CHARACTER basis instead of a RACE basis, we have to do a lot more investigation to really understand how/why/for what reason characters do the things we do. The game sets up this contrast a LOT over the game, and there are even characters we can directly ask "why aren't you acting within the alignment of your race". When we ultimately get to characters like the Emperor, the game sets him up as "not like the other mindflayers." If we assume the mindflayers to be wholesale evil, then we're likely to trust him at his word (bad move). However, beyond the narrative showing us not to mindlessly accept this as true throughout the game, we also have Omeluum!

Omeluum is one of my favorite characters because he walks the walk of trying to good. He doesn't want to mindlessly eat brains. He doesn't want to hurt people. He wants to help where he can, and do good for the Underdark. He's interested in scholarly pursuits, he has friends (that he hasn't mindboggled into doing his bidding). He doesn't act as a judge, jury and executioner for the "wrong doers" of society. He cares about Baldurs Gate and the people in it so much that he literally is willing to sacrifice himself so that they have a better chance of surviving (a la Wyll's dad). He is, in essence, a good dude.

The Emperor on the other hand tries to convince the player that he is similar, but at literally every turn you find out that he's. . .not all that interested in being good. He thinks himself better than people, that he is in a position to judge them and eat their brains. He might *say* nice things, or reminisce about a time he was kinder, but he doesn't take an active role in actually *being* kind. If you're actively aggressive toward him, or openly distrustful, you find out the truth about Stelamane (which Wyll also sort of implies if you talk to him about her). And he admits, his survival and getting what he wants, is always more important than an unnamed third party (whether that's the MC, the Duke, his dragon buddy, whoever).

The game asks us to pay attention to subtlety and manipulation, which I adore. 10/10 would save Omeluum again.

[Mizu]

Him running away to try and escape the influence radius of the elder brain would have been in character. Him going back to the very elder brain that had enslaved him for decades and letting it enslave him again was not.