Sorcerers and charisma

[Nichronos]

Help me understand this.

Warlocks need to convince some powerful being to attain their powers, in their case I understand the need for charisma.
Wizards, on the other hand, spend long years studying their craft. So intelligence as a requirement is pretty obvious.
However, sorcerers are individuals with innate magical ability. So why are their spells tied to charisma of all things? Wouldn't it make more sense for their abilities to be tied to either intelligence or, more likely wisdom?

[Zirkalaritz]

I always interpreted as Charisma being how well they can control their emotions, wich are what shape their inner magic. The ancestry gave them the power, but it's their projection of self what shapes it and manifests it.

Being in their blood, it's not an education thing, so INT doesn't apply. Neither does WIS, as it is not about experience or will,

[Lamp]

Like Carrie, in "Carrie"

Edit: Well actually I guess that'd be psionics for sure :P

I do miss 3.5 expanded psionics

[Slice]

The real reason is because WoTC and a few others decided they had to do something with Charisma other than making it a dump stat. At the time the decision was made, many years ago, Charisma wasn't a main stat for any class.

[Kafik]

Originally posted by Nichronos:

Originally posted by Recjawjind:

They are convincing the world, reality itself to bend to their will.

BG3: "Sorcerers are natural spellcasters, drawing on inherent magic from a gift or bloodline."
Where does it imply anywhere that they have to convince anyone of anything?

I believe that from way back sorcerers were similar to real world magicians in that their magic is all about elaborate presentations to create the spells from within. That's why charisma and no need to memorize spells whereas wizards were all about studying hard to learn their magic. That's why they have spellbooks, can learn spells from scrolls and have a wider variety.

[Pinhead Larry]

Originally posted by Recjawjind:

They are convincing the world, reality itself to bend to their will.

On a more serious note, charisma is not just how well you can talk, it's also a measure of your sense of self and everything related.

That's not charisma, that's willpower and ego, which is completely different from just being charming and socially adroit. What you described doesn't even come close to falling under the definition of charisma.

The real answer is that it's a holdover from older editions of D&D where the developers accidentally assigned willpower as a derived defensive stat from Wisdom (which also makes no sense. Wisdom and willpower have no direct correlation IRL or otherwise) and they just never fixed it.

Originally posted by Zirkalaritz:

I always interpreted as Charisma being how well they can control their emotions, wich are what shape their inner magic. The ancestry gave them the power, but it's their projection of self what shapes it and manifests it.

Being in their blood, it's not an education thing, so INT doesn't apply. Neither does WIS, as it is not about experience or will,

Again, go look up the definiton of "charisma", self-control and emotions have little to nothing to do with it.

WotC are just lazy and don't want to either add Willpower as a stat, or swap out wisdom for willpower because everyone is already used to the standard STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA stat categories.

[Nichronos]

Originally posted by Syzygy:

WotC are just lazy and don't want to either add Willpower as a stat, or swap out wisdom for willpower because everyone is already used to the standard STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA stat categories.

That's one of the things that irks be about this game that makes me regret purchasing it. They kept too many facets of things from the TT game that doesn't translate well to the flow of a video game. I loved D:OS1 and 2, but between the characters and the unintuitive stat progression and classes it just feels like a downgrade.
Every time I try to change my class to try something else I just end up getting irritated.

[Ponyeater]

Originally posted by VoiD:

Originally posted by Recjawjind:

They are convincing the world, reality itself to bend to their will.

On a more serious note, charisma is not just how well you can talk, it's also a measure of your sense of self and everything related.

I'd think that would be the domain of wisdom, same for monks and stuff.

You're not totally wrong in your logic here.

A short description for Wisdom in the 5e ruleset is:
"Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition."

While Charisma has this:
"Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality."

[Fauxsteel]

While we're on the topic of Charisma (I hate to break the sorc topic, but I've got to know):

I haven't played much of the Charisma classes much: Lock, Pally, Bard, Sorc...
Is the reason the pretty ladies don't like me is because my Charisma is low?
The men don't seem to care - they like the snu snu regardless.

[Nichronos]

Originally posted by Fauxsteel:

While we're on the topic of Charisma (I hate to break the sorc topic, but I've got to know):

I haven't played much of the Charisma classes much: Lock, Pally, Bard, Sorc...
Is the reason the pretty ladies don't like me is because my Charisma is low?
The men don't seem to care - they like the snu snu regardless.

Charisma just dictates how well you do with the appropriate checks. So long as you choose dialogue options the character agrees with you'll get to ♥♥♥♥ them. It's effectively just a simp dating simulator. Be nice to character -> ♥♥♥♥ character.

[Membi]

Originally posted by Fauxsteel:

While we're on the topic of Charisma (I hate to break the sorc topic, but I've got to know):

I haven't played much of the Charisma classes much: Lock, Pally, Bard, Sorc...
Is the reason the pretty ladies don't like me is because my Charisma is low?
The men don't seem to care - they like the snu snu regardless.

Nope, that's just the writing, and how much interaction you have with your companions. Charisma only affects the dice in conversation, not the available topics.

[Fauxsteel]

Originally posted by Nichronos:

Originally posted by Fauxsteel:

While we're on the topic of Charisma (I hate to break the sorc topic, but I've got to know):

I haven't played much of the Charisma classes much: Lock, Pally, Bard, Sorc...
Is the reason the pretty ladies don't like me is because my Charisma is low?
The men don't seem to care - they like the snu snu regardless.

Charisma just dictates how well you do with the appropriate checks. So long as you choose dialogue options the character agrees with you'll get to ♥♥♥♥ them. It's effectively just a simp dating simulator. Be nice to character -> ♥♥♥♥ character.

Not a simp. BG3 confirmed. The ladies dislike me.

[Army of Optimists]

Originally posted by Nichronos:

Originally posted by Syzygy:

WotC are just lazy and don't want to either add Willpower as a stat, or swap out wisdom for willpower because everyone is already used to the standard STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA stat categories.

That's one of the things that irks be about this game that makes me regret purchasing it. They kept too many facets of things from the TT game that doesn't translate well to the flow of a video game. I loved D:OS1 and 2, but between the characters and the unintuitive stat progression and classes it just feels like a downgrade.
Every time I try to change my class to try something else I just end up getting irritated.

Nothing about changing the key stat for a class would change the "flow" of the game, though. It'd just be a different stat. The same explanation for the tabletop game exists in the video game. I don't really see the stat progression as unintuitive either. Higher stats means you do the things that rely on that stat better, just like in every RPG?

If you go look up the attributes and their descriptions, Wisdom is how attuned you are to the world around you. Charisma is how well you're able to control and project yourself and your own personality. Thus, WIS is the stat that determines many of your sensory abilities and CHA is the stat for persuasion.

Sorcerers use CHA as a casting stat because they specifically aren't learned spellcasters like Wizards. Their powers naturally arise from their bloodline. As before, CHA is explicitly the stat for self-actualization and projecting the power within, which is exactly what Sorcerers do. Monks and Clerics are attuned to the world around them - Monks through the natural rhythm of Ki and Clerics through divinity - and able to influence it through that connection.

It makes sense as long as you understand what the stats actually are and not what you think they are.

The D&D stat system has its issues, but I don't think the intention of each stat or how the classes rely on them is a problem. It's more to do with imbalance in the usage of them. STR/INT are underutilized and pretty bad as a result, while DEX/CHA are overloaded and too powerful.

[PocketYoda]

Originally posted by Clovis Sangrail:

Originally posted by Nichronos:

Help me understand this.
?

You don't need to 'understand' this. You just need to know how it is and act accordingly.

Sorcerers have been CHR based since Moses was a corporal.

And that's the way it is.

Its still dumb.. Magic users should be using Intelligence not Charisma..

Originally posted by Lamp:

Like Carrie, in "Carrie"

Edit: Well actually I guess that'd be psionics for sure :P

I do miss 3.5 expanded psionics

Technically Monks should be Psionics..

[StoriesBonesTell]

in 5e Charisma represents strength of personality. Paladins for example no longer gain their power from a God, rather they manifest power with raw faith in their oath.

[PocketYoda]

Originally posted by StoriesBonesTell:

in 5e Charisma represents strength of personality. Paladins for example no longer gain their power from a God, rather they manifest power with raw faith in their oath.

Oath of what if its not a god? Oath of a Burrito?