Baldur's Gate 3

Baldur's Gate 3

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Golden Boy Aug 20, 2023 @ 6:25am
Orpheus or Emperor?
What would be the best decisions for my "GOOD" playthrough?

im planning on doing another one, but which would make more sense in a good run?
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Showing 76-90 of 126 comments
Toaster Maximus Oct 11, 2023 @ 2:12am 
Originally posted by parent child bowl:
Illithids outside of the control of an Elder Brain always believing in the Grand Design falls apart as soon as you meet Omeluum.
Brain free diet would change the nature of its kind
Myrmicus Oct 11, 2023 @ 4:57am 
Originally posted by parent child bowl:
Illithids outside of the control of an Elder Brain always believing in the Grand Design falls apart as soon as you meet Omeluum.

Well, yes and no. It's more or less an imprinted desire, but each Illithid is his own person and, as such, can decide that the Grand Design is not for them. Much like you could reject the Dark Urges while playing Durge, an Illithid could reject the Grand Design.


Originally posted by Doom_Cookies:
Thus sans the soul. The only difference between Balduran and a mindflayer who has the whole personality, all of the memories, all of the inclinations of, and actively believes it is Balduran is the lack of the original soul, if even that is true.

It's just the classic philosophical quandary of "if there exists a perfect clone of someone, is it really the same person"? For all intents and purposes, within the context of the game - yes, they are. As you eluded to, whether the Emperor specifically is the original or not really doesn't change anything for the story.

It's not that phylosophical, in the sense that Illithid can get memories from eaten brains... and the tadpole host is the first brain they eat. While they can retain memories from the host, they don't view those as their own.

Then again, Larian's take on Ceromorphosis could differ from that. An easy : "Illithid ? Evil would-be overlord that is totally, definitively not the host that spawned it." is far less interesting than blurring the line, from a writing perspective. And even if they use this version, Emperor could be so overwhelmed by its host's memories that he identifies as him.


Originally posted by Doom_Cookies:
I'm not particularly well versed in DnD/Faerûn lore, as I only know what I've experienced through the BG series and a handful of other DnD games throughout the decades, and what I've looked up in regards to them, but... Is this recent canon? Because they've been making a fair bit of changes to Mindflayers, what with considering older canon also establishes that they do in fact have souls.

Besides, if he wanted to bring about the grand design, he could have just taken control of the uniquely powered-up brain. It was his choice not to. As with a ton of established DnD lore, it's perfectly plausible that the writers are running with the previous lore on this being "unreliable narrator"-esque, making him an exception. Kind of like evil being strictly predetermined by blood/race (a rule which the BG1, 2, and 3 games are all about subverting).

My lore isn't recent, so I may be wrong.
However, according to the lore I know, a singular Illithid wouldn't want to take control of the unique Elder Brain, they would want to become an Elder Brain themselves. The Emperor is smart enough to recognize that this particular Brain is far too powerful to be kept under permanent control : even if he do take over, it relies on him having the stones and those can always be stolen from him. It is especially true for him since, as an Illithid, he is more susceptible to becoming its thrall to the brain.
Last edited by Myrmicus; Oct 11, 2023 @ 4:58am
Doom_Cookies Oct 11, 2023 @ 2:05pm 
Originally posted by Myrmicus:
It's not that phylosophical, in the sense that Illithid can get memories from eaten brains... and the tadpole host is the first brain they eat. While they can retain memories from the host, they don't view those as their own.

I don't know how true this is, but what I read when looking into this a few weeks ago is that newborn mindflayers are so juvenile and easily influenced by their hosts memories that they actually do believe they are them for a short time. It just usually doesn't matter, because they're usually under the control of an elder brain by the time of ceremorphosis. In the same breath, I read that those who retain their host's sense of self for too long are actively purged (killed) to avoid their people's prophecy of The Adversary - a mindflayer who is prophesied to maintain their hosts personality and memory in its entirety and bring about the end of mindflayer society and any hopes of the Grand Design.

The Adversary is essentially the Illithid myth of their end times. But there's actually nothing to say that there will only ever be one Adversary, or that only one of them will put an end to the whole of Illithid society. It's possible that it's a cautionary tale of something that just happens once in a while and must be avoided, rather than a literal prophecy of an upcoming one-time event.

You can imagine why there was a lot of discussion about this regarding The Emperor.

Originally posted by Myrmicus:
My lore isn't recent, so I may be wrong.
However, according to the lore I know, a singular Illithid wouldn't want to take control of the unique Elder Brain, they would want to become an Elder Brain themselves. The Emperor is smart enough to recognize that this particular Brain is far too powerful to be kept under permanent control : even if he do take over, it relies on him having the stones and those can always be stolen from him. It is especially true for him since, as an Illithid, he is more susceptible to becoming its thrall to the brain.

Oh, yes. Now that you mention it, I do remember reading that mindflayers in general believe that their consciousness becomes part of the elder brain if they perish while in its service, and that that's generally considered the greatest honor and their end goal to strive for (aside from their ultimate goal of the grand design). Though I never read that they'd want to become a whole new elder brain, I'm sure many would choose that if they could. I also remember reading that they don't actually become part of the elder brain, anyway - it's a facade, for whatever reason that may be needed.

If I remember correctly, I believe I saw a basic persuasion roll from the PC that can convince The Emperor to dominate the brain instead, leading to one of the evil endings. He seems mighty easy to convince for someone whose reasons for not dominating it to begin with involve mortal danger to himself. Either he really does feel inclined to dominate it and was resisting the urge, he didn't really think those reasons were that big a deal, or he really, really values the PC's opinion.
The1Kobra Oct 11, 2023 @ 3:04pm 
There's one thing I'd add for lore completeness, to show more of the Emperor's true nature.
When he first reveals himself as an illithid, you listen to his tale about how he worked with Duke Stelmane and formed the Knights of the Shield. He calls the Knights of the Shield a mercantile organization.

However, if you know your realms lore, the Knights of the Shield are devoted to Gargauth (a Lawful Evil deity), of information brokers, devil pacters, and in general shady people. While calling them a mercantile organization is technically true, there is a LOT of nasty stuff they got up to. You might even find some hints to this if you look through the abandoned books and logs if you find their old hideout, even though what is in game won't paint a fully clear picture.
Still, it is another red flag on the Emperor's true motives.

Orpheus is admittedly a more unknown quantity. His followers are generally kinder than other Githyanki, and we don't know exactly what happened with Gith, Vlaakith, and Orpheus in their venture to Avernus to make the alliance with Tiamat, since the Gith's "known" history is clearly made by Vlaakith, who is fully okay with lying and falsifying history to further her agenda. And you are shown to several of Vlaakith's other lies and manipulations.
Ichthyic Oct 11, 2023 @ 3:05pm 
the game clearly implies that SELF sacrifice is the "good" choice. it bends over backwards to do so.
The1Kobra Oct 11, 2023 @ 3:13pm 
Well, if you side with Orpheus, there are a few options:
Sacrifice yourself.
Let Orpheus do it.
Let Karlach do it. (Karlach even insists on doing it, because the infernal engine is killing her).

Unfortunately, it did seem like there might have been another path, but that involves sacrificing Gale. There IS that ending where you tell Gale to use the orb, but you still have to let someone become an illithid beforehand. I think the path where you insist on using Gale's orb and no one becomes an illithid might have been left incomplete, alas.


Side note, I'm still not sure how Orpheus can become an illithid. Unless the Emperor infected him? But I don't see the point. And no one calls attention to it if he isn't the one who transforms.
Last edited by The1Kobra; Oct 11, 2023 @ 3:14pm
Myrmicus Oct 11, 2023 @ 4:46pm 
Originally posted by Doom_Cookies:
Oh, yes. Now that you mention it, I do remember reading that mindflayers in general believe that their consciousness becomes part of the elder brain if they perish while in its service, and that that's generally considered the greatest honor and their end goal to strive for (aside from their ultimate goal of the grand design). Though I never read that they'd want to become a whole new elder brain, I'm sure many would choose that if they could. I also remember reading that they don't actually become part of the elder brain, anyway - it's a facade, for whatever reason that may be needed.

If I remember correctly, I believe I saw a basic persuasion roll from the PC that can convince The Emperor to dominate the brain instead, leading to one of the evil endings. He seems mighty easy to convince for someone whose reasons for not dominating it to begin with involve mortal danger to himself. Either he really does feel inclined to dominate it and was resisting the urge, he didn't really think those reasons were that big a deal, or he really, really values the PC's opinion.

Illithid do become part of the Elder Brain when they die in its service... quite literally, might I add. If an Illithid dies or is dying, their brain matter is fed (by themselves if they can) to the Elder Brain, adding to its mass, intellect and psionic power. From the lore I remember, the memories of the dead Illithid are entirely preserved within the brain, but it is pretty much like the relation between host and tadpole : the Elder Brain stays himself, only feeding on the Illithid's brain.

And to be fair, that's not really Illithid that become Elder Brains, even though they have - in their individuality, far away from the Brain's control - a fierce desire to control and conquer, much like Elder Brains themselves... It's the Ulitharid that becomes an Elder Brain.

Ulitharid are a subspecy of Illithids that are stronger, more powerful with an even greater sense of self and individualism and are more often than not considered to be a higher caste of Mind Flayer than the Illithids. They do have some manner of defense against the Elder Brain influence and tend to leave their colony, in order to found their own, transforming into a new Elder Brain.
Ashe Oct 11, 2023 @ 5:01pm 
It took me four runs to choose the emperor. I'm surprised he didn't try anything sus and just decided to go back to his life in BG post game.

Orpheus is chill, though. But like what others said, I'm not sure if it's his usual or under the circumstance; he immediately lists your sins against the empire and then concedes that a nether brain takes precedence.
Doom_Cookies Oct 11, 2023 @ 5:47pm 
Originally posted by Myrmicus:
Illithid do become part of the Elder Brain when they die in its service... quite literally, might I add. [...]

And to be fair, that's not really Illithid that become Elder Brains [...] It's the Ulitharid that becomes an Elder Brain.

Ulitharid are a subspecy of Illithids that are stronger, more powerful with an even greater sense of self and individualism and are more often than not considered to be a higher caste of Mind Flayer than the Illithids. They do have some manner of defense against the Elder Brain influence and tend to leave their colony, in order to found their own, transforming into a new Elder Brain.

That's really cool. This is where my inexperience with general DnD lore knowledge has me lacking - these sorts of details. I'd never even heard of the Ulitharid before, or that Illithid brain matter is fed into the Elder Brain upon death.

The way what I read about Illithid becoming part of their Elder Brain was written made it sound like they believed they would retain their consciousness and become a more direct part of their hive mind. The way you describe sounds different from that - and from the parasite ceremorphosis - because it's another consciousness with preexisting memories and personality subsuming them. But, like with a lot regarding mindflayers, it would seem like the fact that they become part of the elder brain is technically true if not a little misleading.
Last edited by Doom_Cookies; Oct 11, 2023 @ 5:48pm
Steffan Oct 11, 2023 @ 6:34pm 
Originally posted by Golden Boy:
What would be the best decisions for my "GOOD" playthrough?

im planning on doing another one, but which would make more sense in a good run?

This dilemma is a bit less of a matter of "good" and "evil" (though it does touch upon that question too; but this is a meta knowledge). It is a question: who does your character TRUST? Or trust more?

It can work with both. But it depends how much your character is willing to risk.

I played a dark Urge drow. The fact he was trying to shed off his evil nature did not make him good. He was always walking in between good and evil. He chose Orpheus... just because the Emperor was too much of an intrigue-weaver. My drow also spins intrigues but does not want allies like that. And yeah, he was ready to gamble all of Baldur's Gate to get his freedom back and not to become a slave or a mindflayer. The gamble paid off.
Last edited by Steffan; Oct 11, 2023 @ 6:40pm
victorvnv Oct 11, 2023 @ 6:40pm 
The best choise is to go solo without companions judging you or telling you what to do, give the stones to the emperor, use the emperor to dominate the brain then kill the emperor and become the deserving Absolute.

I mean why wouldn’t I ? I will get everyone so whatever I want, be all powerful, have all the women fall in love with me, have full control over everything and everyone.

If it was a real world scenario id take the power for myself without a second thought lol
Steffan Oct 11, 2023 @ 6:41pm 
Originally posted by victorvnv:
The best choise is to go solo without companions judging you or telling you what to do, give the stones to the emperor, use the emperor to dominate the brain then kill the emperor and become the deserving Absolute.

I mean why wouldn’t I ? I will get everyone so whatever I want, be all powerful, have all the women fall in love with me, have full control over everything and everyone.

If it was a real world scenario id take the power for myself without a second thought lol

You can receive the same result with companions. It is easier and less boring, too. :)
Husker_85 Oct 11, 2023 @ 6:42pm 
Originally posted by victorvnv:
The best choise is to go solo without companions judging you or telling you what to do, give the stones to the emperor, use the emperor to dominate the brain then kill the emperor and become the deserving Absolute.

I mean why wouldn’t I ? I will get everyone so whatever I want, be all powerful, have all the women fall in love with me, have full control over everything and everyone.

If it was a real world scenario id take the power for myself without a second thought lol

I've seen a lot of posts on Steam where people get in trouble for telling someone else to kill themselves. And I generally agree that it's a terrible thing to say to someone and you should never say it. But hear me out...
victorvnv Oct 11, 2023 @ 6:50pm 
Originally posted by Isaac_Clark:
Originally posted by victorvnv:
The best choise is to go solo without companions judging you or telling you what to do, give the stones to the emperor, use the emperor to dominate the brain then kill the emperor and become the deserving Absolute.

I mean why wouldn’t I ? I will get everyone so whatever I want, be all powerful, have all the women fall in love with me, have full control over everything and everyone.

If it was a real world scenario id take the power for myself without a second thought lol

I've seen a lot of posts on Steam where people get in trouble for telling someone else to kill themselves. And I generally agree that it's a terrible thing to say to someone and you should never say it. But hear me out...
No I just manhandle the brain alone and so when I get to chose there is no one like Laezel judging me.

Emperor kills Orpheus then i slaughter everyone on our way and then betray his gay manipulative arse and sit alone on the throne. It’s the most satisfying end, with companions around they are just trying to steal my glory for their own benefit

In the end I outsmart my father , my companions and my enemies .

Astarion thinking he will be free as ascended vampire lol but he doesn’t know that he just replaces his old master with a new one .

Feels very satisfying every time
Time Traveler Oct 11, 2023 @ 7:17pm 
Originally posted by Golden Boy:
What would be the best decisions for my "GOOD" playthrough?

im planning on doing another one, but which would make more sense in a good run?

Orpheus. WARNING: Heavy Spoilers! Reject the manipulative Emperor that is only using everyone for his own gain and free Orpheus. Then have him become the Mindflayer and he will not only do so willingly, but will hold no grudge against others for it, and he even supports the MC when they are confronted by his followers. Afterwards, Orpheus will name you a hero of the Githyanki and encourage Lae'Zel to represent him as the new leader against the Evil Queen. Orpheus becomes a martyr, Lae'Zel becomes a liberator to her people and rides off into the sunset, you become a friend of the Gith, and you stop the Emperor from regaining his control over the city.
Last edited by Time Traveler; Oct 11, 2023 @ 7:21pm
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Date Posted: Aug 20, 2023 @ 6:25am
Posts: 126