Question about Magic

[Slowpokie]

Up front, I have very basic knowledge of D&D, which this game is based off of. But having played Divinity: Original Sins 1/2, and now this, Magic seems to be complete weak sauce. You can swing your weapon as many times as you can without any worry about stamina. But magic that is typically tied to mana, it instead tied to Spell Slots. To me, this is like telling any caster, "Hey, we aren't going to make your damage output any higher than physical melee fighters, but we are going to limit the number of real spells that you're able to cast between resting."

So if magic isn't stronger than physical weapons and is rather limited with the number of uses, why would anyone "want" to play as a caster?

Necromancers take a bigger hit. Not only is their magic nerfed, they can't even really summon more than one or two undead at a time. That's not a necromancer. That's someone playing Dr. Frankenstein.

[mig-77]

Because they are most powerfull in later. Anyone else cannot put out as much damage, crow control in single turn (3-4 spell!). That power is limited by how many times you can do it per long rest.

[Nilserrich]

Yes, the magic system is different. In fact, magic is quite powerful. However, in BG3 and especially in D&D as PnP, it is very important when and how you use your magic abilities. Also, buffs and debuffs are of central importance. Especially later in the game. Because you can improve the dice luck for you or/and worsen it for the opponent. That's why the spells are so limited with the spell slots. Also, you can change the strength of many spells depending on the level of slots you use for that spell. Ultimately, it's a similar system to the mana system used in many other games.

By the way, there are also spells that don't consume any slots and can be used as often as you want. These called cantrips are of course not as strong.

[Kafik]

Use scrolls, magic items, bombs, etc. liberally at the lower levels.

[Mormacil]

Weapon attacks generally can only hit a single target, most magic spells can hit multiple or offer utility outside of combat. This game isn't just about combat, if all you're doing is straight fair fights but you're bringing anything but a fighter or a barbarian you're doing it wrong.

Mages offer utility and flexibility at the cost of being less useful early on and against single target.

[sevensided]

You're right Op. Who would want to play something that can kill a whole room in one action, or cause most of the enemy party to stop doing anything? Absolutely silly.

[Swimfan]

Originally posted by Slowpokie:

Up front, I have very basic knowledge of D&D, which this game is based off of. But having played Divinity: Original Sins 1/2, and now this, Magic seems to be complete weak sauce. You can swing your weapon as many times as you can without any worry about stamina. But magic that is typically tied to mana, it instead tied to Spell Slots. To me, this is like telling any caster, "Hey, we aren't going to make your damage output any higher than physical melee fighters, but we are going to limit the number of real spells that you're able to cast between resting."

So if magic isn't stronger than physical weapons and is rather limited with the number of uses, why would anyone "want" to play as a caster?

Necromancers take a bigger hit. Not only is their magic nerfed, they can't even really summon more than one or two undead at a time. That's not a necromancer. That's someone playing Dr. Frankenstein.

Magic is absolutely devestating later on.
Imagine Sorcerers casting two giant fire aoes in one round thanks to their metamagic a.s.o.

It's hilarious how much better magic gets in BG3 the longer the game goes.

[Empu]

Magic can control the whole battle field, you can put enemies out of commision for 10x rounds, and higher level spells you can nuke whole areas with magic. Imagine if you could cast an infinite number of spells like that, you'd be a GOD!!

Don't sleep on control spells, buffs and debuffs, they are VERY powerful.

[Hobocop]

My casters can drop one spell that will continue to do upwards a hundred points or more of damage every turn overall with no further action economy required. Or render half or more of the enemy force entirely inert for multiple turns while I focus down harder targets.

[Swimfan]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

My casters can drop one spell that will continue to do upwards a hundred points or more of damage every turn overall with no further action economy required. Or render half or more of the enemy force entirely inert for multiple turns while I focus down harder targets.

Yeah ... my sorcerer basically pulverized 2/3rd of late game bosse's health bars in one round thanks to metamagic.

[mig-77]

Originally posted by Swimfan:

Magic is absolutely devestating later on.
Imagine Sorcerers casting two giant fire aoes in one round thanks to their metamagic a.s.o.

It's hilarious how much better magic gets in BG3 the longer the game goes.

Sorcerers get 3 spells easely (haste, quicken) and 4 if splashing 2 lvls to fighter (action surge) in single turn 😉

[Swimfan]

Originally posted by mig-77:

Originally posted by Swimfan:

Magic is absolutely devestating later on.
Imagine Sorcerers casting two giant fire aoes in one round thanks to their metamagic a.s.o.

It's hilarious how much better magic gets in BG3 the longer the game goes.

Sorcerers get 3 spells easely (haste, quicken) and 4 if splashing 2 lvls to fighter (action surge) in single turn 😉

Yeah true. I actually underestimated Haste until waaaay too far into my first playthrough because I was too afraid of its potential downside.

The fighter one is a neat idea but I really don't think that extra attack is worth investing 2 points into Fighter as sorcerers really want all the spell slots and metamagic points they can get their cheesy little hands on.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

You're falling into the Fallacy of a huge fight.

At level 1
Martial characters swing once a round for a max damage potential of 15
Rogue characters swing once a round for a max damage potential of 17
Arcane Casters swing once a round for a max damage potential of 10
Divine Casters swing once a round for a max damage potential of 11

However, The Arcane caster, twice, can blast 3+ targets for a max damage of 18 (54+)
The Cleric can, twice, blast a single target for a max damage of 24 and give adv on the next attack against the target.

Next real breakpoint is level 5
Martial characters can swing twice a round for a max damage of 16 (32)
Rogue characters swing once a round for a max damage of 30
Warlocks swing twice a round for a max damage of 14 (28)
Arcane casters swing once a round for max damage of 20
Divine casters swing once a round for a max damage of 16

Warlocks also knock people back
Arcane casters at this point can also twice throw out a blast at 5+ targets with a max damage of 48 (240+)
Divine casters can twice a day set up an AOE around them that slows enemies and deals a max of 20 damage to everything.

Last breakpoint is level 11
Martial characters can swing three times a round for a max damage of 17 (51)
Rogue characters swing once a round for a max damage of 49
Warlocks swing three times a round for a max damage of 15 (45)
Arcane casters swing once a round for max damage of 30
Divine casters swing once a round for a max damage of 24

Arcane casters are now throwing around chain lightning and disintegrate
Divine casters can now pull Planar Ally, Blade Barrier, and heal to full from 1...

None of this discusses anything other than max level spell slot. None considers the caster utility.

And the main point, your theory only works if there's more than 3 real encounters between long rests. So long as you're resting appropriately the Caster never doesn't have spellslots despite appearing to have limited resources.

[Nordil(Hun)]

Dunno how powerful magic is because i simply dont really use it.
No need, my main character with a potion of speed can attack six times per turn. If i made him into a dual wielding fighter would be 8. (action surge double cuz of speed.)
This currently means a damange output of d6+d4+d4+2+4+2 (shortsword, fire damage, lathander damage, acid damage, weapon bonus, dexterity damage, and i could even increase it). Per hand. This six times. I would say this is pretty damn lot. Most of the magic is not that useful, because it is very rarely that you can use your most powerful magics on a group, as it is meant to be, as they are scattered.
Shadowheart's spirit guardians though can be used quite well.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Originally posted by Swimfan:

The fighter one is a neat idea but I really don't think that extra attack is worth investing 2 points into Fighter as sorcerers really want all the spell slots and metamagic points they can get their cheesy little hands on.

It has two purposes. Defense and Nova.

You lose your level 6 spells but you can drop up to 3 fireballs or the like in a single round when you REALLY need things dead. And more mundanely important, you can suddenly put your Sorcerer or Wizard in Full Plate and a shield (and take Defensive as your style so that Fullplate is AC 19 base) for an AC of 21 before any magic.

Also, if you take Fighter at level 1 you have Constitution saves. So... Yeah.

You give up your 6th level slots and in exchange become very close to unhittable (AC 21, up to 27 I think with magic items, then up to 32 with Shield). You have proficiency in concentration checks and can now dump Dexterity if you want meaning the only stats you care about are Int/Cha and Con

[mig-77]

Originally posted by Nordil(Hun):

Dunno how powerful magic is because i simply dont really use it.
No need, my main character with a potion of speed can attack six times per turn. If i made him into a dual wielding fighter would be 8. (action surge double cuz of speed.)
This currently means a damange output of d6+d4+d4+2+4+2 (shortsword, fire damage, lathander damage, acid damage, weapon bonus, dexterity damage, and i could even increase it). Per hand. This six times. I would say this is pretty damn lot. Most of the magic is not that useful, because it is very rarely that you can use your most powerful magics on a group, as it is meant to be, as they are scattered.
Shadowheart's spirit guardians though can be used quite well.

Fine and all but just example lvl10 evo wizard, lvl2 fighter can cast 20 magic missile projectiles that always hit and do 7-10 force damage each. 😉

And doing this with higher AC than any pure melee build can get.