What am I Doing Wrong? I hate magic.

[SledgePainter]

I try to use Gale but it feels like he can use 1 spell in a fight and then that's it. He blows his load one time and then is useless until he goes to sleep to recharge his di--uh, spells. I understand that certain spells "recharge after short or long rest" but many of these do not have such notification, and yet I can't use them turn after turn. Gale seems good for a single magic spell and he's finished. Is there a manna pool system? Like if I use a strong so powerful I can't use anymore spells due to manna? Maybe I could just use fireballs a few times? I'm almost half-way through level 4, have completed the grove, Helsin, Karlach's paladins, the well spiders, destroyed the Goblin camp, and working on Hag right now, and will do the Githyanki creche after that.

Am I not leveled up enough for Hag? Every enemy not a gobbo gets like 3 attack actions per round and I feel like I am having to cheese my way through victories by replaying fights over and over using tactics like blasting barrel powder, electrfying water, or burning up wine casks...just to stand a chance. I try positioning but enemies easy outmaneuver you with 3 moves per turn. It's a brutal struggle and I'm just playing balanced. Every battle takes an hour or longer to get through. I'm 50 hours in and I'm daunted. I feel like I should respec Wyll into a monk that can at least make 2 actions per turn.

[Army of Optimists]

Spells in DnD use a system known as Vancian Magic. Each caster has a pool of spell slots, divided into levels. Every spell has a level and takes one slot of that level to cast. If you prefer, you can think of it like having multiple mana pools. A level 4, Gale has 4 "Level 1" MP and 3 "Level 2" MP, allowing him to cast seven spells between each rest.

As bokke pointed out, you also get Arcane Recovery, which allows you to restore half of your Wizard level in "MP" while out of combat every rest. Each MP costs its level to restore, though. So at level 4, you have two Arcane Recovery points. You can get back two "Level 1" MP or a single "Level 2" MP. So you can actually cast 8 or 9 spells before resting.

However, casters also have a special type of spell known as a Cantrip. Cantrips are your weakest spells - such as Firebolt, Shocking Grasp, Light - but cost nothing to use. You can use Firebolt as many times as you want. These spells also level up as you do. Firebolt does 1-10 damage initially, but increases to 2-20 at level 5, and again to 3-30 at level 11.

As for what you're doing wrong? You're probably casting too many non-Cantrip spells or focusing too much on dealing damage. Cantrips are like the basic melee attack of your Paladins and Barbarians. You use them when the situation isn't urgent or dire. More powerful spells are for tougher fights or taking out key enemies that you know are going to give you problems.

Try to think in terms of efficiency. You could cast Magic Missile that will deal an average of 8 damage or you could cast Grease that knocks down a group of enemies and prevents them from moving forward to hit anyone. Or just cast Firebolt that will deal about 5 damage - is it worth spending that slot on Magic Missile just to put out an extra 3 HP? Then again, Magic Missile never misses, so maybe you need that guy dead this turn and guaranteed damage will help with that.

DnD is really a resource management game at its heart. It's all about finding the best tool in your kit and knowing when to spend it and when to save it.

Or I guess you could hit the long rest button after every single fight but that's going to be an issue when a timed quest shows up.

[SledgePainter]

I had equipped Gale with boots that electrify the area when standing in water. After Gale burnt out of his magic, I would filter enemies into a tight corridor around me and then use a water cantrip on myself. I also take damage but at least it's literally been helping me get through fights. This is NOT the way I want to play but I feel my hand is forced to cheese. Gale also takes damage every turn doing this too but at least it's guaranteed enemy damage while I can melee them.

Thanks for the help about the spell slots. I will try to figure that out so maybe I can understand it better. I'm totally clueless how it works. I just assumed level 1 spells = weak, level 2 spells = stronger than level 1. So, "slots" are like my idea of manna pool? The little glowing squares indicate how much I have left?

[Caelinus]

Originally posted by Naked Granny:

There are a few basic things about casters in D&D that are still true in 5e:

Wizards' spells are not for nuking. That's a pure waste of magic. If you want to inflict hit point damage, use a sword or an arrow. They're free. Specifically, in 5e, your cantrips are your "I just want to basic attack" method for wizards like Gale. The purpose of the wizard class is not to "do damage". It's to decide who on the battlefield gets to do any damage. The only exception to this otherwise hard and fast rule is the Wall Of Fire spell, which is wildly ridiculously overpowered and completely trivializes 70% of fights in the game after you get it some time early in Act 2. But Druids can get that spell, too, so you still have no reason to waste wizard spell slots on doing damage.

You absolutely can use wizard spells for nuking in 5e. They have a lot of high damage spells, they just do not come online until you can cast 3rd level spells. 5e's design paradigm for casters is that they are pretty weak until 3rd level spells, and then they are "rewarded" by suddenly getting a HUGE power spike.

Dead enemies are not a threat anymore, so nuking is itself a type of control.

[Luth (ds2 cultist)]

wizards are mostly cc andies, mby get haste (or speed pot/scrolls) so you have other action to do more dmg, in any case youre close to get big juicers spells hold on or level a bit more to blast hag

[Xiwang]

Originally posted by SledgePainter:

...

i mean mage classes are just supports. you can make a cheese tactic of stacking explosive barrels near a target and just throwing a fireball to your target, the explosion will be glorious.

[SledgePainter]

Originally posted by Army of Optimists:

Spells in DnD use a system known as Vancian Magic. Each caster has a pool of spell slots, divided into levels. Every spell has a level and takes one slot of that level to cast. If you prefer, you can think of it like having multiple mana pools. A level 4, Gale has 4 "Level 1" MP and 3 "Level 2" MP, allowing him to cast seven spells between each rest.

As bokke pointed out, you also get Arcane Recovery, which allows you to restore half of your Wizard level in "MP" while out of combat every rest. Each MP costs its level to restore, though. So at level 4, you have two Arcane Recovery points. You can get back two "Level 1" MP or a single "Level 2" MP. So you can actually cast 8 or 9 spells before resting.

However, casters also have a special type of spell known as a Cantrip. Cantrips are your weakest spells - such as Firebolt, Shocking Grasp, Light - but cost nothing to use. You can use Firebolt as many times as you want. These spells also level up as you do. Firebolt does 1-10 damage initially, but increases to 2-20 at level 5, and again to 3-30 at level 11.

As for what you're doing wrong? You're probably casting too many non-Cantrip spells or focusing too much on dealing damage. Cantrips are like the basic melee attack of your Paladins and Barbarians. You use them when the situation isn't urgent or dire. More powerful spells are for tougher fights or taking out key enemies that you know are going to give you problems.

Try to think in terms of efficiency. You could cast Magic Missile that will deal an average of 8 damage or you could cast Grease that knocks down a group of enemies and prevents them from moving forward to hit anyone. Or just cast Firebolt that will deal about 5 damage - is it worth spending that slot on Magic Missile just to put out an extra 3 HP? Then again, Magic Missile never misses, so maybe you need that guy dead this turn and guaranteed damage will help with that.

DnD is really a resource management game at its heart. It's all about finding the best tool in your kit and knowing when to spend it and when to save it.

Or I guess you could hit the long rest button after every single fight but that's going to be an issue when a timed quest shows up.

I had no clue about the Arcane Recovery at all yet this whole game. I would just short rest and wonder why the heck nothing was recovering. I need to check to see if I have fireball cantrip next time I'm ingame. I might have changed it since Asterion has it and I try to split abilities between peeps but yes I was trying to use Gale more for damage, using grease to later ignite...but wondered why i couldnt do more.

[corisai]

Originally posted by Caelinus:

You absolutely can use wizard spells for nuking in 5e. They have a lot of high damage spells, they just do not come online until you can cast 3rd level spells. 5e's design paradigm for casters is that they are pretty weak until 3rd level spells, and then they are "rewarded" by suddenly getting a HUGE power spike.

Main balance issue that reworked Haste "rewarding" melees much more then casters get on their own level 5th and nobody really cares about balance on last levels :)

[Luth (ds2 cultist)]

Originally posted by Caelinus:

Originally posted by Naked Granny:

There are a few basic things about casters in D&D that are still true in 5e:

Wizards' spells are not for nuking. That's a pure waste of magic. If you want to inflict hit point damage, use a sword or an arrow. They're free. Specifically, in 5e, your cantrips are your "I just want to basic attack" method for wizards like Gale. The purpose of the wizard class is not to "do damage". It's to decide who on the battlefield gets to do any damage. The only exception to this otherwise hard and fast rule is the Wall Of Fire spell, which is wildly ridiculously overpowered and completely trivializes 70% of fights in the game after you get it some time early in Act 2. But Druids can get that spell, too, so you still have no reason to waste wizard spell slots on doing damage.

You absolutely can use wizard spells for nuking in 5e. They have a lot of high damage spells, they just do not come online until you can cast 3rd level spells. 5e's design paradigm for casters is that they are pretty weak until 3rd level spells, and then they are "rewarded" by suddenly getting a HUGE power spike.

Dead enemies are not a threat anymore, so nuking is itself a type of control.

i did sorcerer with quicken meta/haste, literally aoe spammed my way through this game, if that is not nuking idk what it is

[Naked Granny]

Originally posted by SledgePainter:

I had equipped Gale with boots that electrify the area when standing in water. After Gale burnt out of his magic, I would filter enemies into a tight corridor around me and then use a water cantrip on myself. I also take damage but at least it's literally been helping me get through fights. This is NOT the way I want to play but I feel my hand is forced to cheese. Gale also takes damage every turn doing this too but at least it's guaranteed enemy damage while I can melee them.

Thanks for the help about the spell slots. I will try to figure that out so maybe I can understand it better. I'm totally clueless how it works. I just assumed level 1 spells = weak, level 2 spells = stronger than level 1. So, "slots" are like my idea of manna pool? The little glowing squares indicate how much I have left?

The best way to conceptualize "spell slots" is to pretend that they're little grenades that your wizard has to assemble ahead of time, and once your wizard throws the grenade, it explodes and you don't have it anymore so you have to go back to camp where he can assemble more grenades while everyone else is sleeping.

In 5e this analogy is a little muddied because everyone is a "spontaneous caster" now, and the exact combination of spells you "have prepared" is not actually defined in this edition of D&D. Instead, your "spell slots" are organized in ranks of power - like batteries which store more energy. With this analogy, a "spell" is more like a specific laser pistol which might or might not fire a more powerful shot if it has a more powerful battery slotted in to fire it, but the laser pistol still requires a battery of a minimum power level in order to fire at all because it completely drains whatever battery is slotted in when it fires.

So with this analogy, a magic missile pistol fires a more powerful shot if you burn a more juiced up battery to do so. By contrast, a fireball pistol won't even be able to shoot if you don't have at least a level 3 battery to energize it.

And each night, Gale recharges the batteries he has. When he levels up, he adds a new battery or two to his collection.

[Army of Optimists]

Originally posted by SledgePainter:

Thanks for the help about the spell slots. I will try to figure that out so maybe I can understand it better. I'm totally clueless how it works. I just assumed level 1 spells = weak, level 2 spells = stronger than level 1. So, "slots" are like my idea of manna pool? The little glowing squares indicate how much I have left?

Yep. The little squares above your hotbar are your slots/MP remaining. If you get confused about what spells cast with what, you can even click the square and it'll filter the hotbar down to the correct spells only.

And level 2 spells generally are stronger than level 1, but you get less of them (until you level up more, but then you'll get Level 3 spells which are your big guns, and so the progression goes). You can also upcast level 1 spells by spending a higher level slot and they often get stronger that way - if you cast Magic Missile with the default level 1 slot, it shoots three missiles. With a level 2 slot? It shoots four. Level 3? Shoots five. And so on.

It's often not a great idea to upcast most spells, but sometimes it's the right call.

Last note: Wizards are generally a bit weak until they hit level 5. At level 5, you get access to many of the first truly powerful feeling spells like Fireball (does 8-48 damage to everything in an area), Haste (Gives a party member a whole second action - attack twice, cast two spells, etc. - on top of more movement speed and armor), or Fly (it... lets you fly.)

[SledgePainter]

Originally posted by Xiwang:

Originally posted by SledgePainter:

...

i mean mage classes are just supports. you can make a cheese tactic of stacking explosive barrels near a target and just throwing a fireball to your target, the explosion will be glorious.

Honestly yes, this is how most of my battles go. It's fun sometimes but other time daunting and time consuming. I shouldn't feel like I NEED to come up with ways like this just to pass a fight. I poisoned the goblin's beer and eliminated like 5-6 gobbos this way and it was great fun...but not if I have to reduce myself to such tactics all the time everywhere just to stand a chance to win. The wizard just feels so weak compared to the direct fighters.

[FashionSuckMan]

you don't recharge specific spells. Spells use a resource called spell slots. They regen on a long rest, unless you are a warlock. Certain features like wizard meditation lets you regain them on a short rest.

[corisai]

Originally posted by SledgePainter:

The wizard just feels so weak compared to the direct fighters.

If you want to deal direct damage - look on Sorcerer and their builds (still you will need at least mid-range levels).

Wizard is magical "jack of all trades, master of no one". Very powerful in table-top because of utility and absolutely meh in CRPG because they're all about killing monsters again and again.

[Crispy™]

Originally posted by Naked Granny:

Vancian magic was intentionally and deliberately chosen by Gygax to make spellcasters a huge pain in the ass to play and to harshly restrict them

I won't propose that I knew all of Mr. Gygax' ways or motivations, but as a follower and collector of all things D&D and AD&D from about 1978 (original three-booklet rules) to about 1998 (after which it all sucks, imo), I will maintain that Gary never had the intention of making magic-users (note the correct, original spelling ) a "pain in the ass". Rather, I think he realized, early on, once they were slowly introduced through works like Chainmail and such, that their influence on the game was mighty indeed and required close moderation, but was also eminently necessary to the development of the hobby, being so obviously iconic.

To imply that the spell slot, fire-and-forget system which he employed and favored was foisted upon his players as some sort of punishment is misinterpreting one of the most important additions to the original rules ever.

You and I could argue until the suspicious-looking cows come home about whether any RPG's magic system since has topped it, but look at what the result is of "kids these days" not knowing the history of the Vancian system: a thread just like this one.

[Naked Granny]

Originally posted by Luth (ds2 cultist):

Originally posted by Caelinus:

You absolutely can use wizard spells for nuking in 5e. They have a lot of high damage spells, they just do not come online until you can cast 3rd level spells. 5e's design paradigm for casters is that they are pretty weak until 3rd level spells, and then they are "rewarded" by suddenly getting a HUGE power spike.

Dead enemies are not a threat anymore, so nuking is itself a type of control.

i did sorcerer with quicken meta/haste, literally aoe spammed my way through this game, if that is not nuking idk what it is

If you Long Rest after every single combat is over, then spell slots don't matter and none of this conversation matters.

But some quests are affected by the amount of time that has elapsed, and food supplies cost completely trivial amounts of money.