A Reflection: There's No Player Choice Outside of the Ending (spoilers obviously)

[NOD Flamer]

A lot of choices in the game result in the same outcome.
Many dialogue options are void.

3 Major story examples;
Nere - No Matter what you choose, you have to fight the dwarfs if you free him. Unless you're able to win the minds of half of the dwarfs (which the game doesn't tell you).

Ketheric - You can't join and help him. If you try he will just say "I will raise you as my minion", eve nthought you already are because you want to be on his side.

Githyanki Prism Debacle - You can't kill your guardian and choose to side with Vlaakith, because "muh illusions". There is no way to side with the Githyanki here.

The only major story choice you get in this game, is rather or not you backstab Isebol. THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't replayed much enough to figure if you can actually REALLY side with Gortash though. I know you can't side with Orin.

So it's easy to say that for 80% of the game, there's no player choice. Which means that the marketing and hype surrounding "you can play how you want to play" etc. Is just BS and a plain out lie.

SIDENOTE;
The more I reflect on this game and replay it, the more I see how overrated it actually is. I had given it an 8/10 in my mind, but in retrospect it's more of a 7/10.

[Zero McDol]

Originally posted by frottenheimer:

There are lots of sidequests with variable outcomes and endings that the player character gets to influence.

The main story has a real problem with being on rails later in the game and ignoring your dialogue choices and even rolls.

Both of these things can be true.

Right, essentially.

The ending is railroaded. I'm inclined to believe that, despite me not having experienced the ending for myself yet.

There is no denying that sure, however that doesn't mean that there aren't various self contained situations in this game that lead to various outcomes on their own, pending on the choices taken.

Unfortunately, it's just a shame that none of it influences the main story's ending at all.

[trans diaochan truther]

Originally posted by jhughes:

Originally posted by SchizOrtho:

none of those affect the story in the lightest.

Sure they do. If you kill all the goblins, you have a long battle. If you don't then there is no battle.

There absolutely is only probably 5 or 6 final options. Many paths lead to each option. But the paths ARE different.

If you killed Karlach or if she was one of you major companions I'd very different. Especially if you are role-playing as well as getting to the end of the game.

If Wyll leaves your party or not.. Major on the role-playing front.

Do you let Gut try to heal you, or do you kill her? Major difference in role-playing.

Do they mostly all lead to a few number of end results, sure.

I agree that eventually a game has to route you back into the next act or major story step. Obviously they can't create a huge amount of variant areas or questlines for everything.

But, BUT, other CRPGs have and can do a better job of making the main story feel reactive. For instance, in Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous (which has many problems, but IMO succeeds hard at being reactive,) the game is not afraid to show long term consequences of your actions mechanically and flavor wise. You can fill your home base with demons or side with outright evil characters. Characters will disown you and close off entire quest paths depending on the decisions you make, adding to replayability.

Here it's much simpler. Companions can die or leave your party and some minor NPC's might be alive or not at the end of the game. But there are "essential" NPCs that have to always live to act 3 to give you certain quests or options or do certain things for you regardless of how you treated them in the past, which is what leads to the sense that the 'DM' (larian) is 'railroading' you. Because your character isn't capable of struggling through alternate situations on their own.

Basically BG3's main campaign is a 'linear' adventure path with disconnected sidequests and many people expected it to follow the more common CRPG "arborescent" structure where everything is tied together and has longterm consequences even if it leads to the same place. IMO this is a design choice and not necessarily a bad one, but I think Larian did do a bad job of setting expectations with how many fake 'choices' you get on the critical path.

(My adventure design style terms are referenced from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Noow1ZtVyI0 )

[Mazzle Dazzle]

I mean I got the impression this was just part one and we'd get an expansion or something that allowed us to get to level 20 and ascend to godhood or something. The first BG was pretty basic in its endings. If we got an expansion or a 4th game that continued this story and built on it, it could be absolutely insane.

[Shadow Wizard Money Gang]

Its the missing content and quest line glitches. Finding out that Wylls quest line glitching out prevents me from fighting a Legendary Dragon really pissed me tf off. Also Karlachs lack of any true ending spoils that entire companion

[2ez]

Nere died and I did not fight a single dwarf . I just ignored him until the poison got him. Had no idea that was an option. I mean, an AI is not writing this game in real time so the core story elements are set in stone as far as like " this is the story this will happen a few different ways " . Either way you do certainly have a lot of options . You're saying there's no player choice because you don't have an infinite number of ever expanding plot scenarios but no one ever told you there was it's just your unreasonable expectation. They said it was reactive in a vast number of ways , that your choices as a player would directly impact the world an your play though. From what I've experienced this seems to hold up . I dunno , I just be playing games, and this one so far is an all time great .

[innoecent]

You can actually fight Nere while siding with the dwarfs (they participate in the fight) and saving the gnomes at the same time (say some ♥♥♥♥ to near about not killing innocents) if you talk to Elder Brithvar before mosing along. There is choice/nuance but you miss out if you glaze over it.

The choices are kill dwarfs and Nere.

Kill Nere with the dwarfs.

Kill the dwarfs with Nere.

There may be other choices as well but I didn't try to navigate all possible choices.

Not sure if saving the gnomes is specifically tied to siding with the dwarfs but I was able to get them freed by talking to Brithvar. Nere probably wouldn't give a ♥♥♥♥ and prefer to keep the slaves.

Alternatively, in some cases you can actually somehow cause them to fight among each other without having to be involved directly. I figured this out when I did pretty much everything except the whole Nere thing and came back to Nere being dead and everyone else being gone (though to be fair over half of the dwarfs were dead because I killed them.) Philomeen may have been a factor//trigger in this regard.

[cryocore]

Originally posted by SchizOrtho:

A lot of choices in the game result in the same outcome.
Many dialogue options are void.

3 Major story examples;
Nere - No Matter what you choose, you have to fight the dwarfs if you free him. Unless you're able to win the minds of half of the dwarfs (which the game doesn't tell you).

Ketheric - You can't join and help him. If you try he will just say "I will raise you as my minion", eve nthought you already are because you want to be on his side.

Githyanki Prism Debacle - You can't kill your guardian and choose to side with Vlaakith, because "muh illusions". There is no way to side with the Githyanki here.

The only major story choice you get in this game, is rather or not you backstab Isebol. THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't replayed much enough to figure if you can actually REALLY side with Gortash though. I know you can't side with Orin.

So it's easy to say that for 80% of the game, there's no player choice. Which means that the marketing and hype surrounding "you can play how you want to play" etc. Is just BS and a plain out lie.

SIDENOTE;
The more I reflect on this game and replay it, the more I see how overrated it actually is. I had given it an 8/10 in my mind, but in retrospect it's more of a 7/10.

I love idiots like this.

Apart from the fact your objectively wrong, but lets ignore that.
By this meatstick's logic if two people left on a journey from the same location and ended up in the same location regardless of their individual experiences they had the same journey. Person A hitchhiked, walked, and went cross country. Person B took Trains, buses, and kept to the main roads. But because they ended up in the same place they had the same holiday. Well dont sparky you're a genius.

As far as the game goes. Conversations for core quests have multiple outcomes and paths. Quests have multiple solutions and the game is so big you can have a complete experience while still missing a lot of content.

My partner has had a completely different experience than me. As have my friends, and none of us have even attempted the Dark Urge yet. OP is muppet.

[Minnzy]

When you see a tag like "Choices matter" is pretty much always means "Small parts of dialogue in between set story elements will change" in games. Some games pull this off well enough but most are just like Telltales the walking dead (First game). You save person A over B. Person A dies one scene later. Person B would die there if you saved them instead with very little difference in dialogue.

I personally like the conversation differences. As long as it isn't Walking Dead levels of useless I'm ok since it's all I expect.

[NOD Flamer]

Originally posted by cryocore:

Originally posted by SchizOrtho:

A lot of choices in the game result in the same outcome.
Many dialogue options are void.

3 Major story examples;
Nere - No Matter what you choose, you have to fight the dwarfs if you free him. Unless you're able to win the minds of half of the dwarfs (which the game doesn't tell you).

Ketheric - You can't join and help him. If you try he will just say "I will raise you as my minion", eve nthought you already are because you want to be on his side.

Githyanki Prism Debacle - You can't kill your guardian and choose to side with Vlaakith, because "muh illusions". There is no way to side with the Githyanki here.

The only major story choice you get in this game, is rather or not you backstab Isebol. THAT'S IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I haven't replayed much enough to figure if you can actually REALLY side with Gortash though. I know you can't side with Orin.

So it's easy to say that for 80% of the game, there's no player choice. Which means that the marketing and hype surrounding "you can play how you want to play" etc. Is just BS and a plain out lie.

SIDENOTE;
The more I reflect on this game and replay it, the more I see how overrated it actually is. I had given it an 8/10 in my mind, but in retrospect it's more of a 7/10.

I love idiots like this.

Apart from the fact your objectively wrong, but lets ignore that.
By this meatstick's logic if two people left on a journey from the same location and ended up in the same location regardless of their individual experiences they had the same journey. Person A hitchhiked, walked, and went cross country. Person B took Trains, buses, and kept to the main roads. But because they ended up in the same place they had the same holiday. Well dont sparky you're a genius.

As far as the game goes. Conversations for core quests have multiple outcomes and paths. Quests have multiple solutions and the game is so big you can have a complete experience while still missing a lot of content.

My partner has had a completely different experience than me. As have my friends, and none of us have even attempted the Dark Urge yet. OP is muppet.

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i aint reading all that, i'm happy for you though. or sorry that happened

[NOD Flamer]

Originally posted by Minnzy:

When you see a tag like "Choices matter" is pretty much always means "Small parts of dialogue in between set story elements will change" in games. Some games pull this off well enough but most are just like Telltales the walking dead (First game). You save person A over B. Person A dies one scene later. Person B would die there if you saved them instead with very little difference in dialogue.

I personally like the conversation differences. As long as it isn't Walking Dead levels of useless I'm ok since it's all I expect.

i get what you mean, i also don't care for it.

But in the context of BG3 it's quite important, considering this game has been hyped and praised to the moon. Because it proofs how mediocre the game actually is.

So for anyone saying that this is the best RPG ever and you can create your own story sort of etc. is just wrong.

[Mav]

The worst " choice " imo is still the tadpole.

Wether you insert none or 10 gazillions worms in your brain. You will be facing with the same choices and consequences no matter what. ketheric is also baffling too.

[ACS36]

It really comes down to how perceptive you are.

The less perceptive you are, the more willingly you'll buy into what the game presents to you and less likely you'll be able to notice how the game is trying to trick you into believing it's false choices.

[Ka-mai19]

OP is missing the Gale blowing up choice.

There are also choices relating to the crown of karsus. Do you let Gale keep it and become ascended? Do you tell him to take it to Mystra? Do you tell him to leave it in the ocean?

Also: did you make a deal with Raphael where you give him the crown in exchange for something else? If you do so you get an extra epilogue with him ominously thanking you for giving him the power he needed to end The Blood War in his favor. He also mentions he'll be coming for our world soon.

[Mav]

Originally posted by ACS36:

It really comes down to how perceptive you are.

The less perceptive you are, the more willingly you'll buy into what the game presents to you and less likely you'll be able to notice how the game is trying to trick you into believing it's false choices.

So this is basically illusion of choice.

[eldiabs]

Illusion of choice and the fact that every single playthrough you'll be finding the same useless crap in the same containers and fighting the same enemies in the same spots and having the same conversations with fight/don't fight dialog makes the replayability of this game near pointless. Do I want to spend 100+ hours going through the same exact stuff with only minor dialog changes to maybe see a slightly different ending? Nah.