Arbitrary Ability Point limits.

[Twice]

Mostly a complaint about Heavy Armor Master.

So I wanted to do a run where I min-max STR. So I go +2 STR Ability Points for the first feat, Heavy Armor master for the second to get another +1 to reach 20, and then I use Ethels STR hair for a +1 and I get... Nothing. If I use the vigour potion, I get +1 instead of +2.. Why?

Because Heavy Armor Master doesn't actually increase your Ability Points by 1, it gives you a +1 STR Buff Effect instead that only goes up to 20. If you somehow push your STR higher than that, you lose the STR buff.

This is arbitrary nonsense. Just make it increase your STR directly like so many of the other feats do.

[Pinhead Larry]

Yeah, the more I play the more house-ruled BS that they didn't clearly explain or document shows up.

Like, a monk wears no armor, so they should be able to benefit from Mage Armor, yet it has no effect on them unlike in the tabletop where they can benefit from it and become a ridiculous AC dodge tank. Larian classifies Mage Armor as actual Armor-Armor, despite it being magical and having zero weight or restriction on your movement, which is the whole POINT of mage armor.

[SpiritRetro]

umm you know the feat attribute bonuses work exactly the same way in table top right? they only increase an attribute up to 20,

[thefollowingcharacters]

5ed toned down the ridiculous stat creep that 3.5 had. It makes for a much more balanced game.

[Myr Superion]

5e and it's consequences have been a disaster for society.

[Lord_WC]

Originally posted by thefollowingcharacters:

5ed toned down the ridiculous stat creep that 3.5 had. It makes for a much more balanced game.

Except it doesn't, it just killed build variety completely.
Sure, the numbers are smaller but it still doesn't mean you can't get untouchable AC or autohit but in return levelups are completely meaningless. Most levels if you aren't a caster you get max hp and that's all. Which is an incredible achievement considering you are level capped to 12.

Originally posted by Syzygy:

Like, a monk wears no armor, so they should be able to benefit from Mage Armor,

Mage armor sets your base AC to 13.
Monk defence sets your base AC to 10+WIS.
Same typing (base) they don't stack. In 3.5 Mage armor gave armor bonus so it stacked with monk AC bonus.

[Hobocop]

Originally posted by Syzygy:

Yeah, the more I play the more house-ruled BS that they didn't clearly explain or document shows up.

Like, a monk wears no armor, so they should be able to benefit from Mage Armor, yet it has no effect on them unlike in the tabletop where they can benefit from it and become a ridiculous AC dodge tank. Larian classifies Mage Armor as actual Armor-Armor, despite it being magical and having zero weight or restriction on your movement, which is the whole POINT of mage armor.

This is incorrect. You can only use one base AC calculation on TT, and Mage Armor specifically says that the target's base AC becomes 13 + Dex.

https://dnd.wizards.com/sage-advice/errata-october-2016

And...literally every single feat that has an ability score increase says it increases your ability score to a maximum of 20.

[Mormacil]

Another post lamenting the supposed house rules of Larian that are really just 5E rules of someone who's unfamiliar with the tabletop. This is how the tabletop works now so this was to be expected. Either mod the game to your liking or play a DnD game based on a ruleset version you like.

[Radegast]

Time to play BG I / II

[Daliena]

Originally posted by Radegast:

Time to play BG I / II

I wish I had the patience to grasp the arcane mysteries of 2nd Edition. I'd love to experience the first two games' stories, but.. Ugh, AD&D..

[Gitrekt Gudson]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by Radegast:

Time to play BG I / II

I wish I had the patience to grasp the arcane mysteries of 2nd Edition. I'd love to experience the first two games' stories, but.. Ugh, AD&D..

you don't have to grok the entirety of AD&D to play BG1 and 2. Go for it.

[Twice]

Originally posted by SpiritRetro:

umm you know the feat attribute bonuses work exactly the same way in table top right? they only increase an attribute up to 20,

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm That's not my complaint though.

I am fine with feats only bringing stats to 20.

I am not fine with the game robbing me of Ethels Hair and/or Vigourus potion bonus, because the game for some arbitratry reason doesn't consider Heavy Armor Master's STR bonus an Ability Point Increase, but an Ability Point Buff.

Try it yourself.
Increase STR to 19 with one feat, then buy Heavy Armor Master to get 20. No rules broken so far.
Then use Ethels Hair, how many points do you get? NONE.
Use Vigorous potion, any you get +1 instead of the advertised +2.

Resilient has the same problem.

[thrythlind]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by Radegast:

Time to play BG I / II

I wish I had the patience to grasp the arcane mysteries of 2nd Edition. I'd love to experience the first two games' stories, but.. Ugh, AD&D..

Yeah, I'd burned myself out on 1e and 2e back with the Gold Box games before BG came out so I've never really gotten far in it.

The real death kneel for me on that and IWD however was the Pause-and-Command style. Which I tolerated in NWN and NWN2, but I hated going from turn-based to psuedo-real-time especially given how it still tried to stick to turn-based mechanics.

Such a headache.

[thrythlind]

Originally posted by Twice Dead:

Originally posted by SpiritRetro:

umm you know the feat attribute bonuses work exactly the same way in table top right? they only increase an attribute up to 20,

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm That's not my complaint though.

I am fine with feats only bringing stats to 20.

I am not fine with the game robbing me of Ethels Hair and/or Vigourus potion bonus, because the game for some arbitratry reason doesn't consider Heavy Armor Master's STR bonus an Ability Point Increase, but an Ability Point Buff.

Try it yourself.
Increase STR to 19 with one feat, then buy Heavy Armor Master to get 20. No rules broken so far.
Then use Ethels Hair, how many points do you get? NONE.
Use Vigorous potion, any you get +1 instead of the advertised +2.

Resilient has the same problem.

There are only a handful of things that increase the stated max of 20 for ability scores. Ioun Stones and Tomes/Manuals of Ability increase allow you to get 22. The Barbarian level 20 capstone lets you hit 24 in Str and Con. The giant strength belts give Strs of 21, 23, 25, 27, or 29. A few artifacts give you up to 22... but again, those are artifacts.

I would not be surprised if the two items you mentioned are still "Max 20" items. It's well-within the way the tabletop is designed. But given neither of these items exists in the tabletop game, hard to say.

[Wiegs]

Just read the whole thing before picking it next time, you're gonna have a bad time if you try to min-max without reading what the things you pick do.

[angelsenvy228]

Originally posted by Twice Dead:

Originally posted by SpiritRetro:

umm you know the feat attribute bonuses work exactly the same way in table top right? they only increase an attribute up to 20,

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm That's not my complaint though.

I am fine with feats only bringing stats to 20.

I am not fine with the game robbing me of Ethels Hair and/or Vigourus potion bonus, because the game for some arbitratry reason doesn't consider Heavy Armor Master's STR bonus an Ability Point Increase, but an Ability Point Buff.

Try it yourself.
Increase STR to 19 with one feat, then buy Heavy Armor Master to get 20. No rules broken so far.
Then use Ethels Hair, how many points do you get? NONE.
Use Vigorous potion, any you get +1 instead of the advertised +2.

Resilient has the same problem.

So yeah, once you are at 20 AC with Heavy armor master and eat the hair, you gain 1 STR putting you to 21, therefore armor master stops working. Same with the potion. So seems like if you are ever going to go over 20 STR that feat is useless aside from the -3 non magical damage. You aren't getting robbed of the hair or the potion, they are robbing you of your +1 AC from the feat by pushing you over 20. IDK how it works in 5e in the same specific situation, if heavy armor master +1 AC is supposed to disappear if you go over 20 AC through other means.

Technically the ability score improvement feat also says it can only increase up to 20, but you aren't losing those points in your example, so maybe its a bug