Isobel and Aylin’s story was so cringe

[Wolf]

That whole relationship and storyline how ketheric kept them apart was so cringe. Of course his daughter had to be a lesbian and in a relationship with angel ffs lazy inclusive writing. Evil white old man bad for neglecting his LGBT daughter..

[SomeGuyOnPhone]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Grumpy:

Początkowo opublikowane przez pervosuxx:

Oh, and the fact that Aylin talks about needing to copulate with Isobel as if she's been observing years of 'No Nut November,' while Isobel behaves like a smitten teenager just after Aylin brutally killed and crushed her father's head, is in absolute poor taste. This is very badly written dialogue.

I think your own tastes are blurring the actual atmosphere of their scenes.

The much more realistic depiction of situations and reactions in Act 1 and most of Act 2 made this particular scene feel completely jarring, as it came out of the blue. The lack of buildup is what bothered me. Until the very end of Act 2, everything else was well-paced and the stories incredibly well-written, but the relationship between Aylin and Isobel was just tacky and poorly handled. If they had tweaked it a bit, made it more emotional and grounded—similar to Aragorn and Arwen's relationship in "The Lord of the Rings"—it would have worked better. Perhaps Aylin could have mentioned her sexual frustration later on at camp or in Act 3. Or why didn't they wrap it up with a celebration in camp like in Act 1? This bothered me because, until that point, I was greatly immersed. Suddenly, I was jolted into a scene that seemed to have been written by a subpar, wannabe Marvel TV show teen writer. Think of the cringe from the "Witcher: Blood Moon" TV show—yes, it was that bad.

[SomeGuyOnPhone]

Początkowo opublikowane przez LordOfTheBread:

Lemme guess,it is cringe because they are gay right? Right?

No and now you are just being silly

[SomeGuyOnPhone]

Początkowo opublikowane przez FreshRevenge:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Panda-Bishop:

If your takeaway of Ketheric is that he's an "evil white old man bad for neglecting his LGBT daughter", then it's not the writing that's the problem, you've just got LGBT blinders on.

Ketheric is anything but neglectful, he raised Isobel by himself after his wife died from some unknown disease, it was Isobel's death that motivated him to abandon Selune to serve Shar, and it was Myrkul's offer to resurrect Isobel that motivated him to abandon Shar to serve Myrkul. He's doing all this ♥♥♥♥ for Isobel and you think that's neglectful? Misguided, sure, but neglectful? Seriously?

As for what he did to Aylin? He didn't do it to keep her away from his daughter. You weren't paying attention to the timeline, because Isobel was already dead by the time he trapped Aylin, she literally tells you that she was lured into the Shadowfell by Ketheric while they were both still mourning Isobel's death.

Ketheric trapped Aylin as a) an offering to Shar and b) presumably to punish Selune for taking his wife and daughter away by taking her daughter away. Literally nothing is said to imply he disapproved of same-sex relationships, everything points to his motivations being one of unholy vengeance... but you just looked at lesbians and went "oh, yeah, it's totally about LGBT agenda."

Honestly, I've heard more LGBT "propaganda" from "anti-woke" people than actual "woke" people. Maybe pump your brakes a bit and realize there isn't an LGBT boogeyman hiding in every corner.

I think it was how it portray or presented. As soon as Isobel and Aylin unite, she basically says she wants to have sex, after moments of reuniting. They could have just hugged and kiss and say something a little bit modest. But the whole scene was to basically about saying "We are lesbian's and we are going to frig all night long"

One of my favorite romance from a tv show is called the X-Files. Mulder and Scully. They displayed levels of affection toward each other without being overtly sexual. Here is it's almost vulgar and disgusting how they treat sex and romance as some adult video.

I agree. And that is exactly my point too it was jarring. Also it wasn't mentioned at all, or at least I didn't pick up on it that Ketheric was forcefully keeping Aylin away from Isobel because he disliked their relationship. Which again is the entire point to why this relationship was poorly handled.

[SomeGuyOnPhone]

Początkowo opublikowane przez homelander:

i personally feel like aylin and isobels relationship would have been cringe to me regardless of them being a gay couple or not, you could easily have one of them be a man and it wouldn't change my opinion at all. i feel the people saying that if one of them were male it would be fine are missing the point, them being gay or not is not at all in anyway linked to their bad writing them being lesbian isn't the cringe part its how they're written simple as that.
(also this is just my opinion if you disagree and like aylin and isobel thats great im glad you could find enjoyment in something i couldn't, there's no reason a discussion like this can't be civil but unfortunately some people wanna insert their own political beliefs into their arguments when that really isn't at all the crux of the issue here.)

Completely agree. I would have had the same issue regardless. People who shut down discussions by attacking criticism with labels like "you're homophobic" or "you're sexist" or "you're racist," etc., are incapable of engaging in constructive dialogue. They live in a bubble, oblivious to the complexities of reality outside their delusional worldview.

[SomeGuyOnPhone]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Metal Izanagi:

Quit crying about SJWs. We're better than you, and you know it lol.

Spoken like a true nazi

[Grumpy]

Początkowo opublikowane przez pervosuxx:

Początkowo opublikowane przez homelander:

i personally feel like aylin and isobels relationship would have been cringe to me regardless of them being a gay couple or not, you could easily have one of them be a man and it wouldn't change my opinion at all. i feel the people saying that if one of them were male it would be fine are missing the point, them being gay or not is not at all in anyway linked to their bad writing them being lesbian isn't the cringe part its how they're written simple as that.
(also this is just my opinion if you disagree and like aylin and isobel thats great im glad you could find enjoyment in something i couldn't, there's no reason a discussion like this can't be civil but unfortunately some people wanna insert their own political beliefs into their arguments when that really isn't at all the crux of the issue here.)

Completely agree. I would have had the same issue regardless. People who shut down discussions by attacking criticism with labels like "you're homophobic" or "you're sexist" or "you're racist," etc., are incapable of engaging in constructive dialogue. They live in a bubble, oblivious to the complexities of reality outside their delusional worldview.

There's a difference between poor story telling and something not to your tastes though.

The actual scene with Aelin and her bluntness is used as a little joke moment, you either like it or not. If you didn't, well that's too bad but there's nothing to be done about that.

[SomeGuyOnPhone]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Panda-Bishop:

If your takeaway of Ketheric is that he's an "evil white old man bad for neglecting his LGBT daughter", then it's not the writing that's the problem, you've just got LGBT blinders on.

Ketheric is anything but neglectful, he raised Isobel by himself after his wife died from some unknown disease, it was Isobel's death that motivated him to abandon Selune to serve Shar, and it was Myrkul's offer to resurrect Isobel that motivated him to abandon Shar to serve Myrkul. He's doing all this ♥♥♥♥ for Isobel and you think that's neglectful? Misguided, sure, but neglectful? Seriously?

As for what he did to Aylin? He didn't do it to keep her away from his daughter. You weren't paying attention to the timeline, because Isobel was already dead by the time he trapped Aylin, she literally tells you that she was lured into the Shadowfell by Ketheric while they were both still mourning Isobel's death.

Ketheric trapped Aylin as a) an offering to Shar and b) presumably to punish Selune for taking his wife and daughter away by taking her daughter away. Literally nothing is said to imply he disapproved of same-sex relationships, everything points to his motivations being one of unholy vengeance... but you just looked at lesbians and went "oh, yeah, it's totally about LGBT agenda."

Honestly, I've heard more LGBT "propaganda" from "anti-woke" people than actual "woke" people. Maybe pump your brakes a bit and realize there isn't an LGBT boogeyman hiding in every corner.

That was also my thought, which is precisely why criticizing people with the excuse, "oh, you just dislike lesbians," is misguided. The criticism isn't about the lesbian aspect; it's the abrupt diversion from established plot points. Not once did I sense that Ketheric kept them apart because of a "my daughter won't be gay" mentality, but rather because of his deep hatred for Selune. The issue arises after his defeat, where all the built-up plot points and the history behind Ketheric's sacrificial love for his daughter are dismissed in favor of a relationship between Aylin and Isobel that was never the focus in the first place. And yes, I loved Ketheric as a villain; he was well-written, and you could understand his reasoning. That's why I appreciated his arc until the aftermath, where he became nothing but an afterthought for his daughter. That was just poorly written.

[SomeGuyOnPhone]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Grumpy:

Początkowo opublikowane przez pervosuxx:

Completely agree. I would have had the same issue regardless. People who shut down discussions by attacking criticism with labels like "you're homophobic" or "you're sexist" or "you're racist," etc., are incapable of engaging in constructive dialogue. They live in a bubble, oblivious to the complexities of reality outside their delusional worldview.

There's a difference between poor story telling and something not to your tastes though.

The actual scene with Aelin and her bluntness is used as a little joke moment, you either like it or not. If you didn't, well that's too bad but there's nothing to be done about that.

Not the right time to put in a marvel esque joke. That is poor writing.

[Grumpy]

Początkowo opublikowane przez pervosuxx:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Panda-Bishop:

If your takeaway of Ketheric is that he's an "evil white old man bad for neglecting his LGBT daughter", then it's not the writing that's the problem, you've just got LGBT blinders on.

Ketheric is anything but neglectful, he raised Isobel by himself after his wife died from some unknown disease, it was Isobel's death that motivated him to abandon Selune to serve Shar, and it was Myrkul's offer to resurrect Isobel that motivated him to abandon Shar to serve Myrkul. He's doing all this ♥♥♥♥ for Isobel and you think that's neglectful? Misguided, sure, but neglectful? Seriously?

As for what he did to Aylin? He didn't do it to keep her away from his daughter. You weren't paying attention to the timeline, because Isobel was already dead by the time he trapped Aylin, she literally tells you that she was lured into the Shadowfell by Ketheric while they were both still mourning Isobel's death.

Ketheric trapped Aylin as a) an offering to Shar and b) presumably to punish Selune for taking his wife and daughter away by taking her daughter away. Literally nothing is said to imply he disapproved of same-sex relationships, everything points to his motivations being one of unholy vengeance... but you just looked at lesbians and went "oh, yeah, it's totally about LGBT agenda."

Honestly, I've heard more LGBT "propaganda" from "anti-woke" people than actual "woke" people. Maybe pump your brakes a bit and realize there isn't an LGBT boogeyman hiding in every corner.

That was also my thought, which is precisely why criticizing people with the excuse, "oh, you just dislike lesbians," is misguided. The criticism isn't about the lesbian aspect; it's the abrupt diversion from established plot points. Not once did I sense that Ketheric kept them apart because of a "my daughter won't be gay" mentality, but rather because of his deep hatred for Selune. The issue arises after his defeat, where all the built-up plot points and the history behind Ketheric's sacrificial love for his daughter are dismissed in favor of a relationship between Aylin and Isobel that was never the focus in the first place. And yes, I loved Ketheric as a villain; he was well-written, and you could understand his reasoning. That's why I appreciated his arc until the aftermath, where he became nothing but an afterthought for his daughter. That was just poorly written.

I really have a hard time understanding that. As you said they're not the focus of the plot so once Ketheric has been deal with, we're on to the next main quest and they're just secondary. Once you're dealt with the mage's tower, they also move on.

Did we need to see Isobel cried on screen to appease you ? From what i can remember she drew a line between the father who raised her and the monster he became after and that's not to far fetched.

[votadc]

Początkowo opublikowane przez pervosuxx:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Panda-Bishop:

If your takeaway of Ketheric is that he's an "evil white old man bad for neglecting his LGBT daughter", then it's not the writing that's the problem, you've just got LGBT blinders on.

Ketheric is anything but neglectful, he raised Isobel by himself after his wife died from some unknown disease, it was Isobel's death that motivated him to abandon Selune to serve Shar, and it was Myrkul's offer to resurrect Isobel that motivated him to abandon Shar to serve Myrkul. He's doing all this ♥♥♥♥ for Isobel and you think that's neglectful? Misguided, sure, but neglectful? Seriously?

As for what he did to Aylin? He didn't do it to keep her away from his daughter. You weren't paying attention to the timeline, because Isobel was already dead by the time he trapped Aylin, she literally tells you that she was lured into the Shadowfell by Ketheric while they were both still mourning Isobel's death.

Ketheric trapped Aylin as a) an offering to Shar and b) presumably to punish Selune for taking his wife and daughter away by taking her daughter away. Literally nothing is said to imply he disapproved of same-sex relationships, everything points to his motivations being one of unholy vengeance... but you just looked at lesbians and went "oh, yeah, it's totally about LGBT agenda."

Honestly, I've heard more LGBT "propaganda" from "anti-woke" people than actual "woke" people. Maybe pump your brakes a bit and realize there isn't an LGBT boogeyman hiding in every corner.

That was also my thought, which is precisely why criticizing people with the excuse, "oh, you just dislike lesbians," is misguided. The criticism isn't about the lesbian aspect; it's the abrupt diversion from established plot points. Not once did I sense that Ketheric kept them apart because of a "my daughter won't be gay" mentality, but rather because of his deep hatred for Selune. The issue arises after his defeat, where all the built-up plot points and the history behind Ketheric's sacrificial love for his daughter are dismissed in favor of a relationship between Aylin and Isobel that was never the focus in the first place. And yes, I loved Ketheric as a villain; he was well-written, and you could understand his reasoning. That's why I appreciated his arc until the aftermath, where he became nothing but an afterthought for his daughter. That was just poorly written.

It Is implied that Aylin was bored about her toy Isobel. Ketheric Is sceptic "she Is the daughter of a goddess, what she could do with a mere mortal?" then Isobel dies.
Aylin nukes Isobel when you kill her because she thinks that Isobel Is her property and unworthy to survive her.
If you imprison Aylin for Lorroakan then Isobel says that she fears that Aylin could free herself to come after her.
In act 2 if you mention Ketheric then Isobel would lie because she doesn't want to be associated with him fearing you don't trust her. But if you mention Aylin then Isobel wouldn't recognize her when still imprisoned but will say that she always loved her after Aylin Is free and Is next to her with a two handed weapon.

[Grumpy]

Początkowo opublikowane przez votadc:

Początkowo opublikowane przez pervosuxx:

That was also my thought, which is precisely why criticizing people with the excuse, "oh, you just dislike lesbians," is misguided. The criticism isn't about the lesbian aspect; it's the abrupt diversion from established plot points. Not once did I sense that Ketheric kept them apart because of a "my daughter won't be gay" mentality, but rather because of his deep hatred for Selune. The issue arises after his defeat, where all the built-up plot points and the history behind Ketheric's sacrificial love for his daughter are dismissed in favor of a relationship between Aylin and Isobel that was never the focus in the first place. And yes, I loved Ketheric as a villain; he was well-written, and you could understand his reasoning. That's why I appreciated his arc until the aftermath, where he became nothing but an afterthought for his daughter. That was just poorly written.

It Is implied that Aylin was bored about her toy Isobel. Ketheric Is sceptic "she Is the daughter of a goddess, what she could do with a mere mortal?" then Isobel dies.
Aylin nukes Isobel when you kill her because she thinks that Isobel Is her property and unworthy to survive her.
If you imprison Aylin for Lorroakan then Isobel says that she fears that Aylin could free herself to come after her.
In act 2 if you mention Ketheric then Isobel would lie because she doesn't want to be associated with him fearing you don't trust her. But if you mention Aylin then Isobel wouldn't recognize her when still imprisoned but will say that she always loved her after Aylin Is free and Is next to her with a two handed weapon.

Looks like some conjonctures to me from your part. As sides characters there's not that much depth to their story.

[Josey]

I didn't mind her relationship with the priestess, but I don't think.. after years trapped in a void prison.. escaping thanks to us.. and then defeating her nemesis.. the first thing that She plans is so have sex with someone.. The game did not have to yell at me what she is into and honestly It doesn't matter.. in my opinion.. I think It's out of place, We had act III to drop some hints and stuff.. I enjoy subtle things in gaming

[BIG E.]

You can kill her. Just like any other NPC in the game.

[Grumpy]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Josy:

I didn't mind her relationship with the priestess, but I don't think.. after years trapped in a void prison.. escaping thanks to us.. and then defeating her nemesis.. the first thing that She plans is so have sex with someone.. The game did not have to yell at me what she is into and honestly It doesn't matter.. in my opinion.. I think It's out of place, We had act III to drop some hints and stuff.. I enjoy subtle things in gaming

Well it's a good way to show what she is : blunt, borderline annoying, goody two shoes and blind to schemes around her.

In a way she's a big doofus.

[Banelord]

Początkowo opublikowane przez pervosuxx:

Oh, and the fact that Aylin talks about needing to copulate with Isobel as if she's been observing years of 'No Nut November,' while Isobel behaves like a smitten teenager just after Aylin brutally killed and crushed her father's head, is in absolute poor taste. This is very badly written dialogue.

While I agree with your sentiment entirely, why did you necro this topic?