Those critical of BG3, what games did it better?

[Naamtar]

Would be interested in hearing what games you feel are of higher quality and possibly find some I've not heard of yet.

[Tachyon]

Publicado originalmente por GetUrAssToMars:

In the writing department? Planescape Torment would be an easy comparison in the same universe.

I remember playing that when it was released on CD and I still have it lying around somewhere or other. It really hooked me. I can't believe it was 24 years ago.

I was hoping to dash out and buy this one for a similar experience, but I've watched/read many reviews and read this forum since launch and a few cracks seem to be appearing under the veneer, possibly? There are lots of positive reviews, true, and that's encouraging, but it's also said that they're based on the initial favourable reactions to Act 1.

All the following is hearsay, mostly on this forum, but it seems to be gaining momentum, albeit slowly. Act 1 is great, then the game gradually deteriorates in Act 2 through to Act 3, where the ending is anticlimactic and (?) has cut/missing content. Relationships seem to be foisted on players whether they want them or not. I've seen a couple of posts from people who say they're gay and even they are fed-up with the never-ending unsolicited advances. The lack of good loot is also disappointing people who post here, with unexceptional drops and treasure chests dug up to reveal... a food item. Maybe the gripes are just thwarted expectations, maybe not.

It looks like a hold on buying the game until a bit later on, possibly a couple of weeks or more. It's too big a game to form an opinion within the 2-hour refund window so it's not really much use trying that avenue. I may as well dig out that Planescape Torment disk I suppose. 🙂

[Space Dog]

Original Baldur's Gate games and Infinity Engine games were better at making the world feel real. There was real distance between locations and random encounters make the world more exciting. BG3 feels like a tightly scheduled theme park visit even though it obviously is of higher quality otherwise. BG3 is too dense with secrets, loot containers and special locations behind every corner, especially outdoor areas.

D&D as a ruleset feels more realistic and less cartoony than BG3. The overpowered Shoving and Jumping in BG3 feels more like some generic arcade game move that ignores the rest of the system, so I'd say D&D and other D&D CRPG's do combat better than BG3 for an RPG.

The attempt to bring more magic items and equipment progression to D&D just feels like there's useless magic junk with worthless conditional properties everywhere. Too many gloves, boots, amulets and rings you will never use.

[SnuffSaid]

Publicado originalmente por Vorpal Spoon:

Publicado originalmente por RobOda:

*snip

I guess my beef with Pathfinder games is that I really knew based on what I played, that I would have liked it if I could have finished it. I think there was a fun series to be had, but I never got to see that. And I was real close to beating Bugmaker:Gamebreaker, but ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ balls. WotR, I didn't waste my time past an hour, because of the amount wasted on K:M that soured it for me.

Again, it is clear why Owlcat will NEVER get a license to create a BG title. There size and budget are not the issue, it's the lack of commitment to finish what they start. I really wish I could have enjoyed how others have, but I just don't see Owlcat the way fans do I guess.

It's a damn shame you couldn't power through with WOTR, because honestly, it's leaps and bounds above Kingmaker. I can't even remember a lot of Kingmaker, it was decent in some ways but not enough to outshine Owlcats obvious flaws. WOTR absolutely does, even though those very same flaws persist.

Owlcat are held back by two things and one of them definitely is budget, but yeah, the other is their maddening design decisions. I feel like if they could poach even just one sensible person from somewhere like Obsidian, who could supervise them and tell them when they are doing something stupid, they would be able to create a masterpiece. They've got endless potential, they're just also frustratingly esoteric. Like a mad genius who is prone to rambling but also says a lot of truly profound things.

[ArchAnge1LT]

Solasta made better UI for sure. I am not sure how Larian managed to have such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ UI all this time.

[Scrubwave]

Publicado originalmente por ArchAnge1LT:

Solasta made better UI for sure. I am not sure how Larian managed to have such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ UI all this time.

By having horrible UI for ~10 years in their games and never bothering to fix it.

[KOHb]

In terms of combat, tactics, crafting and other gameplay mechanics related to DnD combat — Solasta is 2 heads higher.
As for exploring, questing and possibilities this game is great.

[ACS36]

Comparisons don't matter to me when I judge a game. I examine each game based on it's own merits.

YOU can easily deceive yourself in reaching poor conclusions by comparing one game to another game.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

lets just look at what neverwinter nights 2 without the expensions added:
We had a 70 hour campaign.
We had kelgar, neeska, elene, grobar arrowbait gnomehands, bishop, casavier, quora, sand, warlock who i names escapes me.
Each with there own personaliy, story and class.
We had barbarian, druid, cleric, fighter, wizard, sorceror, warlock, and many other classes i glassed over.
We have crafting, 20+ different skills, memerable characters like gailen and tarmas or cormic.
Or that freeloader good for nothing ducan.
We had 20 level's, a few hunderd feats and dozens of different enemies.
A none functional multiplayer(The fact the multiplayer mod after the shut down the servers is a million times better speaks volums)
We had arrows, bows, swords, scyth's, axes, warhammer, war axes, sling shots, crossbows, etc.
We had 3 different camara mode and movement modes.
And most importantly of all.
We had companion with working ai.
I could fine tune my companions so neeska automatic opened locked and disarmed traps.
I could have the companions pick up the loot allowing me to be lazy.
I could play a cleric or wizard and get people commont on my class.

This game is ancient.
I was a teenager when it came out.
And it is still unsurpast by modern games.
To me that is the greatest insult of them all.
Despite having more tools and people then decades ago they cannot suprass this buggy mess of an awesome game.

[Ultimaty]

Publicado originalmente por Abisha:

Publicado originalmente por SnuffSaid:

Yeah, the points regarding Wrath Of The Righteous are reasonable. It's a diamond in the rough for sure, although it's a testament to how great it's strengths are that they manage to outshine not only the bugs, but also horrendous design decisions like crusade mode or the combat encounter bloat. I feel like if Owlcat had some kind of supervision to rein in some of their mad tendencies, and also more funding, they'd probably create the greatest RPG of all time.

Owlcat should remove the "crusader army thing all together" it have no real meaning in the game and it annoying people a lot. you are not the first that complain about this.

You can turn off crusader army management in the menu. Contrary to some very contravesial stuff of BG3.

[Vorpal Spoon]

Publicado originalmente por SnuffSaid:

Like a mad genius who is prone to rambling but also says a lot of truly profound things.

Owlcat=Nikola Tesla?
I will give WotR another go since someone said a fan (or Owlcat) fixed their ♥♥♥♥ finally. Maybe I will have a different opinion that's more up to date.

[[SWE]Junker]

Publicado originalmente por Naamtar:

Would be interested in hearing what games you feel are of higher quality and possibly find some I've not heard of yet.

Higher Quality and a better game is 2 distinct diffrent things , a better crpg for me is Pathfinder Kingmaker and Pathfinder wrath of the righteous. Larian makes great games but something about their design style bothers me , it is of high quality in regards to the rpg genre thou

[Wolfgang421]

Publicado originalmente por Space Dog:

Original Baldur's Gate games and Infinity Engine games were better at making the world feel real. There was real distance between locations and random encounters make the world more exciting. BG3 feels like a tightly scheduled theme park visit even though it obviously is of higher quality otherwise. BG3 is too dense with secrets, loot containers and special locations behind every corner, especially outdoor areas.

D&D as a ruleset feels more realistic and less cartoony than BG3. The overpowered Shoving and Jumping in BG3 feels more like some generic arcade game move that ignores the rest of the system, so I'd say D&D and other D&D CRPG's do combat better than BG3 for an RPG.

The attempt to bring more magic items and equipment progression to D&D just feels like there's useless magic junk with worthless conditional properties everywhere. Too many gloves, boots, amulets and rings you will never use.

I have been in and watched plenty of tabletop sessions of 5e where shove and jump were abused, as well as throw. Mostly because of prefab'd encounters where enemies are placed next to ledges and such. I really feel 3.5 did combat maneuvers better, though understandably more complex.

The sheer amount of magic loot and gold is kind of crazy. I haven't kept up with the setting economy or anything since 3.5, but I recall a single gold piece being the annual income for a typical peasant - peasants being the vast majority of people. Here I am in Act 3, with more than 20k to my name (granted, I am level 12 and quite exceptional beyond a peasant), and talking to clothiers and chefs with 1k+ gold on their person. Used to be, once you got past a certain amount of coinage, gems came into play - if only because of weight and nothing else.

[Marosh]

Is the genre irrelevant? If so:

Factorio
Probably still the all time king when it comes to the whole development/EA process and quality release. Imho still the game we should meassure other releases/EA and not what was worse.

CrossCode
Pretty close to Factorio. Also a good benchmark

Both games always come to my mind if someone asks which release/EA was better. Other notable games:

- Stardew Valley
- God of War 2018
- Hades
- Guacamelee
- Dragon Quest 11
- Disco Elysium

They had some minor issues, but the games weren't frontloaded nor were the issues a big deal.

I would like to bring Elden Ring in but I can't really do that. It had some major (performance) Issues on release. Thats a minus for the list. Overall feeling is a plus. Didn't felt like Fromsoft lost their interest in making the later half.

If we wanna look if the "good quality = huge success" claim is true, we can watch "En Garde!". Released yesterday. Should sell like a cake. Can't wait for it to surpase BG3. Even the steam reviews are higher. Or.. maybe... quality is almost irrelevant.

We could also look back to old consols. Where patches and additions weren't possible.
- Zelda: Link to the Past
- Mario
- Final Fantasy
- God of War again
- Dragon Quests again
You know the pattern. That's why we started loving some series. Before we called big publisher greedy.

A small selection I get straight out of my head.

Edit: Just thinking of it and more and more games pop up in my head.
- Transistor
- Bastion
- Persona 5
- Ender Lilies
- Forager

[KOHb]

Publicado originalmente por ACS36:

Comparisons don't matter to me when I judge a game. I examine each game based on it's own merits.

YOU can easily deceive yourself in reaching poor conclusions by comparing one game to another game.

Comparition is always relevant :) By definition.
To rate something you need a base with origin.

[iacono]

BG2 still reigns supreme