Confusion: Spell DC

[Zlorfik [CH/BY]]

I am at a loss with spell DC. I have looked into this mostly because i found the cleric's sacred flame underwhelming. Now, as far as i understand, many spells use a simple attack roll against AC for hitting the target. So a target with 11 AC being hit by a fireball with the caster having +5 to attack roll from caster stat + proficiency, it's very easily understandable that the fireball has 70% hit chance (1-(11-5)/20).

However, if i attack the same target with sacred flame, i get an entirely different result. I understand that sacred flame has no attack roll against DC, rather, the target has to do a dex saving throw against the DC + attack modifier of the spell. So far so good. Now, if my target has 13 dexterity and no proficiency in dex saving throws, it gets a +1 modifier to dex saving throws. So why does my sacred flame only have 60% hit chance? Well, according to the combat log, the reason is because the spell has a DC of 8, to which my caster stat + proficiency totaling in 5 is added. Now, doing the same calculation we get ((8+5-1)/20) {i am aware the combat log shows it differently, but for the sake of simplicity, that's how the maths work out}

So far so good. I understand the maths. I understand how spell DC affects rolls. But why in the 9 hells does sacred flame get a base spell DC of 8? What is the DC of other spells? What affects spell DC? Where do i see what DC my spells/cantrips with saving throws have? This makes all spells with saving throws inherently less likely to hit, if they all have a spell DC of 8. But then again, i don't know whether they do because apart from the combat log i have not found that info anywhere.

Any help appreciated.

[Hezvolog]

all spell DC starts at 8. This is because a character gets a single AC, but their saving throw changes depending on the targeted stat.

This means a wily player can target weak stats for saving throws, even for well armored and otherwise powerful opponents; I.E. low con use debilitating poisons, low charisma use certain enchantment spells, low wis you have a gamut of control spells to knock them from the fight for 2/10 turns, low str bully them in melee and knock them off ledges; you get the idea. The hardest part to saving throw DC is that not much equipment modifies it, so it is either great or terrible depending on the enemy and the targeted stat. Study your opponents, and try to target weak saves (and get a melee weapon for your cleric. Some opponents rock dexterity saves, giving shadowheart a terribly hit% with sacred flame).

Hope this helps

[Clive Hawkins]

If an enemy has high AC you use Sacred Flame
If it has high Wisdom you use Firebolt.

Bard's can use Cutting Words to subtract 1d6/1d8/1d10 to an enemies saving throw as a Reaction.
Bane reduces saving throws by 1d4
Sorcerer's can take Heightened Spell which gives you advantage on saving throw spells.
A few rare items that increase spell dc +1.

There's lot's of ways that your party comp can almost guarantee a success on save vs. suck spells.

[Zlorfik [CH/BY]]

Originally posted by Hezvolog:

all spell DC starts at 8. This is because a character gets a single AC, but their saving throw changes depending on the targeted stat.

This means a wily player can target weak stats for saving throws, even for well armored and otherwise powerful opponents; I.E. low con use debilitating poisons, low charisma use certain enchantment spells, low wis you have a gamut of control spells to knock them from the fight for 2/10 turns, low str bully them in melee and knock them off ledges; you get the idea. The hardest part to saving throw DC is that not much equipment modifies it, so it is either great or terrible depending on the enemy and the targeted stat. Study your opponents, and try to target weak saves (and get a melee weapon for your cleric. Some opponents rock dexterity saves, giving shadowheart a terribly hit% with sacred flame).

Hope this helps

I could accept this if all casters had options to make use of that to deal damage with the same level of spell. Look at a cleric. You've got sacred flame and throwing the flame produced by "Produce Flame". The latter uses attack roll iirc. This means that against a target with high AC and Wisdom, such as a Tempest or War cleric, either is unreliable to hit. To me, the whole point of magic is to hit heavily armoured targets which bypasses the AC but is not necessarily stronger against other mages. When a fight just tells you "this character is useless now" it is a really bad balancing. It's not like I built a pyromancer and meet fire immune enemies. That's on me. I built the pyromancer.

The problem I have is not that I should choose an attack that the enemy is weak to. That is common sense. The issue is that even then you are at a 10% disadvantage compared to attack rolls.

An enemy with 11 AC is barely armoured. In any melee focused class that gives you a 70% hit chance (starting out). An enemy with 12 Dexterity has a +1 to DEX Spell save DC which I would consider "barely resistant". It's just a point above average. Yet a magic focused cleric would only get a 60% hit chance (starting out). It's just not equal. And Before you say that I should just attack that target in melee, what if that target is wearing light armour and has 13 AC?

Just because AC can get higher more easily is not a good excuse, at least not in the early game. The highest AC armour in BG3 is 21 (+11 from baseline). This can be increased further by spells and other gear, similar to Saving throws. The highest natural Saving throw modifier you can get is +9 from baseline (4 proficiency, 5 ability). At this level it makes it is even. However, I don't think a game should be balanced for the extremes like max level. It should be balanced for the majority of the way to get there.

Cantrips are weak and unremarkable. They are weaker on average than attacks in melee and ranged. They should at least get the same efficiency against targets. Melee & Ranged fighters can use special attacks and attack multiple times. Casters get higher level spells for AoE or control. Cantrips are still not balanced with a DC of 8.

[Zlorfik [CH/BY]]

Originally posted by Clive Hawkins:

If an enemy has high AC you use Sacred Flame
If it has high Wisdom you use Firebolt.

Bard's can use Cutting Words to subtract 1d6/1d8/1d10 to an enemies saving throw as a Reaction.
Bane reduces saving throws by 1d4
Sorcerer's can take Heightened Spell which gives you advantage on saving throw spells.
A few rare items that increase spell dc +1.

There's lot's of ways that your party comp can almost guarantee a success on save vs. suck spells.

While Shadowheart gets access to firebolt, it scales off her intelligence which is very weak on her. She may as well use sacred flame. Bane is a spell that expends a spell slot. Can't use bane on every single enemy in every single fight. Given melee and ranged is already stronger than basic mage attacks aka cantrips, they should have at least similar hit chances.