Headcanon question. Do mindflayers really have souls or not?

[magickmynd]

If you have gotten far enough into the game you get information from Withers that mindflayers do not have souls, and so the plot of the dead three to become the cult of the absolute shouldn't have any purpose, since their powers are fueled by souls.

And yet throughout the game it feels like the interactions with the emperor and omeleum the friendly mind flayer would suggest that they do have their own minds and personalities outside of elder brain influence.

So the question becomes, is withers just telling you that they don't have souls in order to try and persuade you not to become one or not to trust them, or is he actually saying straight up as having knowledge of the afterlife that they really don't have souls?

And can a creature without a soul have the personality and make the moral decisions that the rogue mindflayers in the game seem to be making?

For example, at the ending the emperor straight up told me to use the stones to destroy the elder brain, not to control it. Whereas before I could have sworn that his intention was to dominate it and then control it and become the REAL mind flayer emperor.

But that's not what happened.

If he was really so soulless and only wanted power for himself, would he have made that decision at the end?

I had also thought that maybe he was asking the mc to give him the stones and let him go against the elder brain as his final bid for the crown and power, but he easily hands them over to you and makes you an illithid if you want to take that route, he doesn't try to convince you after you make the choice or try to force you.

And then at the end of the game if you are an illithid, even though the elder brain is gone, the game tries to tell you that your sense of self and persoanlity are starting to disappear due to your hunger, but yet there are known rogue illithids who have their own sense of self without any special tadpoles, so it seems like writers error to have definite proof that mind flayers can be individuals without a colony and yet somehow you have to struggle to maintain yourself?

I'm calling bs.

My headcanon is that my illithid mc has a soul and has full control of their own mind and made the decisions they did because they were necessary.

Elder brain, dead. Dead 3 chosen, all slain.

The crown being searched for by gale to return to mystra.

All characters alive except karlach, who I think gets the worst ending no matter what you choose, which kind of makes me mad because she is, imo, the best romanceable character and there is a happy ending for pretty much everyone except her.

So to me, best and easiest path through the game is lean into the illithid powers and become a rogue mindflayer. Sure, you've got to deal with the hunger for brains, but can always eat criminals and murderers like the emperor did.

[Caode (they/them)]

Okay so here's the thing I've been noodlin'.

Withers should be busy on Chult right now. Acererak, his boss has long constructed the Tomb of the Nine Gods, and the Soulmonger will be active roughly within the next five years after the events of BG3.

The soulmonger is an incredibly powerful magical object that takes the souls from everything on the planet when they die and sucks it all up.

If mindflayers in fact do not have souls, and the mindflayer threat is not stopped now Acererak's plan will never come to fruition because there will be no souls left to suck up. This is the only reason I can think of that would get Withers to come to another continent to help.

[Cyroy]

Originally posted by Caode:

Okay so here's the thing I've been noodlin'.

Withers should be busy on Chult right now. Acererak, his boss has long constructed the Tomb of the Nine Gods, and the Soulmonger will be active roughly within the next five years after the events of BG3.

The soulmonger is an incredibly powerful magical object that takes the souls from everything on the planet when they die and sucks it all up.

If mindflayers in fact do not have souls, and the mindflayer threat is not stopped now Acererak's plan will never come to fruition because there will be no souls left to suck up. This is the only reason I can think of that would get Withers to come to another continent to help.

Withers is not related to Acererak, but that was a nice theory you had going.

[Flintstone (CodeMonkey)]

There is a mind flayer god. https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/index.php?title=Ilsensine

[Lamp]

Originally posted by Flintstone (CodeMonkey):

There is a mind flayer god. https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/index.php?title=Ilsensine

Totally forgot about this.

"Ilsensine is served by illithids, cranium rats, and eaters of knowledge, and it is the patron of all who enslave the thoughts of others. Because Ilsensine promises power and domination to all that follow it, sometimes members of other races (particularly psions) will create small cults devoted to the deity.

Illithids do not worship Ilsensine in the same way that other races typically worship their gods. They revere Ilsensine because it—as an all-knowing disembodied brain—epitomizes everything that their elder brains aspire to be, and might one day become after evolving for uncountable aeons. The mind flayers envy Ilsensine's knowledge, supplicating it and entreating it for favors, but the illithids are too self-centered to truly worship anything."

That last bit there is pretty on-brand for what I know of illithids.

Edit: As for the subject of if they have souls, I defer to 'Wither's judgement- he would know.

[Lightning Mcree]

I think it's more later in the game the netherbrain kinda pulls a game was rigged from the start bit and spoke on how it was the driving force behind it all. It from the start planned on being freed from netherstone control and bringing about the grand design, that the emperor didn't really "escape" and that he was let go and guided towards the prism to pull start it's release from the control of the netherstones.

I think the dead three's role in this is that they never wanted people to go full flayer, if they had continued to keep control over the netherbrain lets say worst case scenario or whatever. All the absolute cultists would still have their souls, and they'd be completely under the control of the dead three, which is what they were going for. World domination, completely and totally. I think the dead three get shafted or tricked by the netherbrain into putting these machinations into work through their chosen ones thinking that all those tasty tasty souls would be given to them through the thought to be elder brain proxy. That's my head cannon at least on the topic. Mind flayers don't really have souls and the calculated risk by the dead three's chosens just didn't work because they lost control of their roided out pet.

[Faptor]

K so im playing a "good" playthrough for once and I think ive been totally wrong about the Emperor.
Through my Dark Urge and morally grey play through, I trusted him 100% but now I see him for what he is.

[Yomi]

It doesn't matter if illithid possess soul or not, the ceremorphosis process literally kill the original host. Whatever came out whenever they have the same personality and memory or not is a complete different creature. You can literally True Resurrect someone who has undergone ceremorphphosis and they would be revived into a new body, while the mind flayer stay intact.

Jergal is also one of the oldest god working with souls, if he say illithid have none that means he have seen the soul of the people who died due to ceremorphosis and you do NOT know better than him.

So no, your MC killed themselves and got replaced by a "rogue illithid" who now possesses the host's personality, power and memory. Please stop coping.

[❃ Galiäna Krüger ❃]

TLDR, yes they have. They just live on eating brains.

[magickmynd]

Originally posted by Yomi:

It doesn't matter if illithid possess soul or not, the ceremorphosis process literally kill the original host. Whatever came out whenever they have the same personality and memory or not is a complete different creature. You can literally True Resurrect someone who has undergone ceremorphphosis and they would be revived into a new body, while the mind flayer stay intact.

Jergal is also one of the oldest god working with souls, if he say illithid have none that means he have seen the soul of the people who died due to ceremorphosis and you do NOT know better than him.

So no, your MC killed themselves and got replaced by a "rogue illithid" who now possesses the host's personality, power and memory. Please stop coping.

except that you are talking about normal tadpoles and normal mindflayers.

In this instance we are talking about a transition of netherese spawned illithid that was guided intentionally through the process while still retaining their entire personality.

It's not standard lore.

So if we change the question from "do all mind flayers have souls?" to "does our MC mindflayer have a soul?", the results then could be different.

Also, it's rare, but there have been illithids who have become liches, and becoming a lich requires a soul to be placed in a phylactery, so if they were truly soulless, they could never become a lich.

[Tootsy]

Originally posted by magickmynd:

Originally posted by Bread:

Mistra says mindflayers have no souls, Withers tells you that mindflayers have no souls, and Withers says it when he is alone in the last scene that the other gods were angry that the dead three were destroying souls by making them into mindflayers, so idk why yall try so hard to cope with your decisions. Becoming a mindflayer is a bad idea, trusting emperor is a bad idea, making karlach into one is a bad idea. Best outcome is to act as if u trust emperor until the end, free Orpheus, let him become al illithid, he helps destroy the brain, then he lets you kill him, karlach dies but her soul lives in the other planes

because creatures with no souls just don't act the way the emperor and omeleum do in the game.

Typically soulless creatures like devils, demons, constructs, etc don't act with human emotion or morality.

They typically are either completely emotionless or only show negative morality such as the desire for power, excessive levels of pride, cold calculation, etc.

And usually yes I would attribute mindflayers who are enslaved to the elder brain to be soulless if they stayed that way after they are released from it's control.

But instead you get instances like those two where as soon as they were able to break control they went rogue and have their own personalities and don't immediately attack anyone they see just for brains to satiate their hunger.

They instead deliberately attack only those that either deserve it or that the local morality of the society in which they live approve of them getting rid of.

It just seems very odd to me that mystra and withers tell you they have no soul when it just seems more accurate to say that they are faithless or agnostic.

Which is something that you actually see happen IRL when a community becomes more advanced and leaning more towards science and logic they typically tend to be athiests or agnostics.

And throughout the game the emperor SEEMS suspicious and like he shouldn't be trusted, but honestly I didn't see anything in the game that validates that suspicion.

By the end of the game and seeing his life story it seems like once he got free of the elder brain all he ever did was help baldur's gate from the shadows, help you and your companions survive, and then helped destroy the elder brain at the end without trying to control it.

Actions speak louder than words and none of his actions so far in the game through to the end seem to show that he has any bad intentions or does anything inherently wrong ethically or morally.

Other than the fact that he lets the mc eat the prince to help destroy the brain if you choose that option, but he doesn't do it himself and when you do get the power he doesn't try and convince you to dominate the elder brain instead of destroy it, so the results are the same either way.

The emperor literally tells you he is faking those emotions in order to persuade you and make himself more relatable.

[magickmynd]

Originally posted by Tootsy:

Originally posted by magickmynd:

because creatures with no souls just don't act the way the emperor and omeleum do in the game.

Typically soulless creatures like devils, demons, constructs, etc don't act with human emotion or morality.

They typically are either completely emotionless or only show negative morality such as the desire for power, excessive levels of pride, cold calculation, etc.

And usually yes I would attribute mindflayers who are enslaved to the elder brain to be soulless if they stayed that way after they are released from it's control.

But instead you get instances like those two where as soon as they were able to break control they went rogue and have their own personalities and don't immediately attack anyone they see just for brains to satiate their hunger.

They instead deliberately attack only those that either deserve it or that the local morality of the society in which they live approve of them getting rid of.

It just seems very odd to me that mystra and withers tell you they have no soul when it just seems more accurate to say that they are faithless or agnostic.

Which is something that you actually see happen IRL when a community becomes more advanced and leaning more towards science and logic they typically tend to be athiests or agnostics.

And throughout the game the emperor SEEMS suspicious and like he shouldn't be trusted, but honestly I didn't see anything in the game that validates that suspicion.

By the end of the game and seeing his life story it seems like once he got free of the elder brain all he ever did was help baldur's gate from the shadows, help you and your companions survive, and then helped destroy the elder brain at the end without trying to control it.

Actions speak louder than words and none of his actions so far in the game through to the end seem to show that he has any bad intentions or does anything inherently wrong ethically or morally.

Other than the fact that he lets the mc eat the prince to help destroy the brain if you choose that option, but he doesn't do it himself and when you do get the power he doesn't try and convince you to dominate the elder brain instead of destroy it, so the results are the same either way.

The emperor literally tells you he is faking those emotions in order to persuade you and make himself more relatable.

He stated he was faking the emotions while he was playing the guardian before he was revealed to be a mindflayer.

If you react with reason and logic up to that point he admits that he was surprised you were more reasonable than expected and he didn't need to go through the trouble to hide who he was, but even after that when everything has been revealed and he KNOWS you are a logical and straightforward person he still continues to treat you as an ally or companion prospect rather than just an alliance of convenience.

And also if he were just after power and only acting to get an advantage, then why encourage you to destroy the brain rather than dominate it so that he could control it alongside the mc?

Never once through the playthrough did he take any action beyond supporting the mc and taking any action necessary to destroy the brain.

So regardless of whether or not his original actions were an act, in the end he stayed who he was after the reveal, no different than anyone else who is a species that might not be easily accepted by the average public would do.

[Zackerie]

mind flayers do not have souls. Some souls can remain in control of a mind flayer body however. depends on what is stronger, according to bg3 anyway. the parasite or the soul. illithids know about flayers that keep their souls and hunt them down.

[Tootsy]

Originally posted by magickmynd:

Originally posted by Tootsy:

The emperor literally tells you he is faking those emotions in order to persuade you and make himself more relatable.

He stated he was faking the emotions while he was playing the guardian before he was revealed to be a mindflayer.

If you react with reason and logic up to that point he admits that he was surprised you were more reasonable than expected and he didn't need to go through the trouble to hide who he was, but even after that when everything has been revealed and he KNOWS you are a logical and straightforward person he still continues to treat you as an ally or companion prospect rather than just a method of alliance.

And also if he were just after power and only acting to get an advantage, then why encourage you to destroy the brain rather than dominate it so that he could control it alongside the mc?

Never once through the playthrough did he take any action beyond supporting the mc and taking any action necessary to destroy the brain.

So regardless of whether or not his original actions were an act, in the end he stayed who he was after the reveal, no different than anyone else who is a species that might not be easily accepted by the average public would do.

For the same reason he tells you he must devour Orpheus's brain even though he doesn't need to, personal power. Controlling the absolute might seem like a power play at first until you realize the other gods are paying attention to whats happening and I can almost guarantee you Ao is not going to just pretend nothing is happening to souls. As an illithid regardless to what he says he is also far more susceptible to an elder brain than anyone else, one slip up is all it takes for everything to come crashing down. I wouldn't be surprised if his ultimate goal is to become an elder brain himself and one with Orpheus's powers would be a terrible thing.

As for supporting your character he HAD TO, he was stuck and had not options outside of you.

[Mizu]

Originally posted by magickmynd:

Originally posted by Tootsy:

The emperor literally tells you he is faking those emotions in order to persuade you and make himself more relatable.

He stated he was faking the emotions while he was playing the guardian before he was revealed to be a mindflayer.

If you react with reason and logic up to that point he admits that he was surprised you were more reasonable than expected and he didn't need to go through the trouble to hide who he was, but even after that when everything has been revealed and he KNOWS you are a logical and straightforward person he still continues to treat you as an ally or companion prospect rather than just an alliance of convenience.

And also if he were just after power and only acting to get an advantage, then why encourage you to destroy the brain rather than dominate it so that he could control it alongside the mc?

Never once through the playthrough did he take any action beyond supporting the mc and taking any action necessary to destroy the brain.

So regardless of whether or not his original actions were an act, in the end he stayed who he was after the reveal, no different than anyone else who is a species that might not be easily accepted by the average public would do.

Destroying the brain is pretty logical, though. Its got a track record of re-enslaving him and eventually turning the tables on people who try to enslave it like the chosen of the dead 3 did.

[magickmynd]

Originally posted by dcalebh:

Originally posted by magickmynd:

He stated he was faking the emotions while he was playing the guardian before he was revealed to be a mindflayer.

If you react with reason and logic up to that point he admits that he was surprised you were more reasonable than expected and he didn't need to go through the trouble to hide who he was, but even after that when everything has been revealed and he KNOWS you are a logical and straightforward person he still continues to treat you as an ally or companion prospect rather than just an alliance of convenience.

And also if he were just after power and only acting to get an advantage, then why encourage you to destroy the brain rather than dominate it so that he could control it alongside the mc?

Never once through the playthrough did he take any action beyond supporting the mc and taking any action necessary to destroy the brain.

So regardless of whether or not his original actions were an act, in the end he stayed who he was after the reveal, no different than anyone else who is a species that might not be easily accepted by the average public would do.

Destroying the brain is pretty logical, though. Its got a track record of re-enslaving him and eventually turning the tables on people who try to enslave it like the chosen of the dead 3 did.

I wouldn't exactly call 1 instance a "track record". The only reason it didn't stay enslaved itself was because the MC killed off the people keeping it under control. If the mc never did that, the plan would have succeeded.

And having 3 people in control was always a recipe for disaster.

But at the end your one character or the emperor would have had control.

It's reasonable to expect that if only one person had control vs 3 they could just hide somewhere safe while controlling the brain and it's army through proxy and no one could have really done anything about it.

Except gale apparently, that netherese orb bomb is no joke.