Headcanon question. Do mindflayers really have souls or not?

[magickmynd]

If you have gotten far enough into the game you get information from Withers that mindflayers do not have souls, and so the plot of the dead three to become the cult of the absolute shouldn't have any purpose, since their powers are fueled by souls.

And yet throughout the game it feels like the interactions with the emperor and omeleum the friendly mind flayer would suggest that they do have their own minds and personalities outside of elder brain influence.

So the question becomes, is withers just telling you that they don't have souls in order to try and persuade you not to become one or not to trust them, or is he actually saying straight up as having knowledge of the afterlife that they really don't have souls?

And can a creature without a soul have the personality and make the moral decisions that the rogue mindflayers in the game seem to be making?

For example, at the ending the emperor straight up told me to use the stones to destroy the elder brain, not to control it. Whereas before I could have sworn that his intention was to dominate it and then control it and become the REAL mind flayer emperor.

But that's not what happened.

If he was really so soulless and only wanted power for himself, would he have made that decision at the end?

I had also thought that maybe he was asking the mc to give him the stones and let him go against the elder brain as his final bid for the crown and power, but he easily hands them over to you and makes you an illithid if you want to take that route, he doesn't try to convince you after you make the choice or try to force you.

And then at the end of the game if you are an illithid, even though the elder brain is gone, the game tries to tell you that your sense of self and persoanlity are starting to disappear due to your hunger, but yet there are known rogue illithids who have their own sense of self without any special tadpoles, so it seems like writers error to have definite proof that mind flayers can be individuals without a colony and yet somehow you have to struggle to maintain yourself?

I'm calling bs.

My headcanon is that my illithid mc has a soul and has full control of their own mind and made the decisions they did because they were necessary.

Elder brain, dead. Dead 3 chosen, all slain.

The crown being searched for by gale to return to mystra.

All characters alive except karlach, who I think gets the worst ending no matter what you choose, which kind of makes me mad because she is, imo, the best romanceable character and there is a happy ending for pretty much everyone except her.

So to me, best and easiest path through the game is lean into the illithid powers and become a rogue mindflayer. Sure, you've got to deal with the hunger for brains, but can always eat criminals and murderers like the emperor did.

[Settings]

Honestly it probably just is something that Larian needed to say to find a reason why Bhaal was behind Illithids for some reason

[felmari]

i agree they "can".

they are though a hive mind. without the blocks in place they and you would be absolutely compelled to follow the directives thus without autonomy mostly.

[magickmynd]

Originally posted by ᛊᚨᛁᛚᛟᚱ ᛗᛟᛟᚾ:

Honestly it probably just is something that Larian needed to say to find a reason why Bhaal was behind Illithids for some reason

Yes, but if it was a lore reason as to why Bhaal was behind the whole scheme, then the illithids being soulless would be a reason for Bhaal NOT to do the whole thing, because he wouldn't be getting any souls out of it.

So doesn't make sense for the dead 3 to be behind it, they get no benefit if everyone becomes illithids if they have no souls.

[Khryst]

Originally posted by ᛊᚨᛁᛚᛟᚱ ᛗᛟᛟᚾ:

Honestly it probably just is something that Larian needed to say to find a reason why Bhaal was behind Illithids for some reason

basically that's how I feel about it.

Illithids are completely alien, and yet the idea that it "destroys" the souls of the person prior doesn't fit in with the lore of mindflayers in general. as that states the victim of ceremorphosis spirit would have to "seek it's fate in the outer planes". Which means the soul still travels to the outer planes to be judged/claimed/abandoned just like normal.

[Faptor]

Originally posted by magickmynd:

So doesn't make sense for the dead 3 to be behind it, they get no benefit if everyone becomes illithids if they have no souls.

My understanding of the plan was to just make the initial army MF'ers to conquer/capture Baldur's. Then they were going to tadpol everyone else to make their army bigger and controllable.

[magickmynd]

Originally posted by kblaze13:

Originally posted by ᛊᚨᛁᛚᛟᚱ ᛗᛟᛟᚾ:

Honestly it probably just is something that Larian needed to say to find a reason why Bhaal was behind Illithids for some reason

basically that's how I feel about it.

Illithids are completely alien, and yet the idea that it "destroys" the souls of the person prior doesn't fit in with the lore of mindflayers in general. as that states the victim of ceremorphosis spirit would have to "seek it's fate in the outer planes". Which means the soul still travels to the outer planes to be judged/claimed/abandoned just like normal.

Right, but does the god of murder, bhaal, become empowered just from someone getting murdered?

Do either of the other two gods in the dead 3?

If they got souls and got more power just from being being murdered or from being transformed into illithids, it would make sense.

The only other way it would make sense to me is if they didn't tadpole EVERYONE, just enough to have enough people to keep control of everyone else, and then have enough population left over to keep like cattle.

Not sure there is enough information in the game to say exactly what the desired outcome was for the 3 gods involved.

[Khryst]

Originally posted by magickmynd:

Originally posted by kblaze13:

basically that's how I feel about it.

Illithids are completely alien, and yet the idea that it "destroys" the souls of the person prior doesn't fit in with the lore of mindflayers in general. as that states the victim of ceremorphosis spirit would have to "seek it's fate in the outer planes". Which means the soul still travels to the outer planes to be judged/claimed/abandoned just like normal.

Right, but does the god of murder, bhaal, become empowered just from someone getting murdered?

Do either of the other two gods in the dead 3?

If they got souls and got more power just from being being murdered or from being transformed into illithids, it would make sense.

The only other way it would make sense to me is if they didn't tadpole EVERYONE, just enough to have enough people to keep control of everyone else, and then have enough population left over to keep like cattle.

Not sure there is enough information in the game to say exactly what the desired outcome was for the 3 gods involved.

Thing is none of them are truly Divine anymore. They are classified as "quasi-divine" they are still greater then any mortal, but have lost ALL their divine power. If anything the plan was most likely to kill enough people that the other gods grew weaker, so they could attempt to take that divinity from them for themselves.

It fits into how the dead three were and got their divinity in the first damn place, although Jergal let them have it because he was bored lol. Yet they had to prove they were "worthy" of it first.

[Gaius]

I managed to save Karlach, but had to turn her into an Illithid . The issue is, I'm not sure it's reflected in the ending, because my good ending just crashed and doesn't complete, I can only complete the game is I atually betray her and control the netherbrain instead of destroying it .

[magickmynd]

Originally posted by kblaze13:

Originally posted by magickmynd:

Right, but does the god of murder, bhaal, become empowered just from someone getting murdered?

Do either of the other two gods in the dead 3?

If they got souls and got more power just from being being murdered or from being transformed into illithids, it would make sense.

The only other way it would make sense to me is if they didn't tadpole EVERYONE, just enough to have enough people to keep control of everyone else, and then have enough population left over to keep like cattle.

Not sure there is enough information in the game to say exactly what the desired outcome was for the 3 gods involved.

Thing is none of them are truly Divine anymore. They are classified as "quasi-divine" they are still greater then any mortal, but have lost ALL their divine power. If anything the plan was most likely to kill enough people that the other gods grew weaker, so they could attempt to take that divinity from them for themselves.

It fits into how the dead three were and got their divinity in the first damn place, although Jergal let them have it because he was bored lol. Yet they had to prove they were "worthy" of it first.

That would make more sense.

Just greedy mortals trying to grab more power from the gods rather than being actual gods themselves.

[Tootsy]

The biggest authority on souls tells you straight up they have no souls, what you see is an imprint of the old being on a fresh Ithilid. That Impression is stronger and will last longer the stronger the hosts personality was.

[jk2l]

in a DND setting, i do think Mind Flayer have soul but probably a mind controlled or corrupted soul.

[wemic]

withers in game says they don't have souls. I believe him

[Avlaen]

mind/personality =/= soul

[Mokum]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY39fkmqKBM

[Khryst]

Originally posted by magickmynd:

Originally posted by kblaze13:

Thing is none of them are truly Divine anymore. They are classified as "quasi-divine" they are still greater then any mortal, but have lost ALL their divine power. If anything the plan was most likely to kill enough people that the other gods grew weaker, so they could attempt to take that divinity from them for themselves.

It fits into how the dead three were and got their divinity in the first damn place, although Jergal let them have it because he was bored lol. Yet they had to prove they were "worthy" of it first.

That would make more sense.

Just greedy mortals trying to grab more power from the gods rather than being actual gods themselves.

Oh they are far more then mortal, they still have traces of their godhood, just very little of the power.

It also makes more sense that Jergal "joins" you too, since he's not only the god that gave the dead three their divinity, but still currently serves as seneschal of death for Kelemvor the current God of Death.

Seeing as how the Gods are forbidden from acting directly and must work through mortal proxies, Jergal joins up with the party to aid his current lord in stopping the dead three from achieving their goals as it's likely Kelemvor is their ultimate target to regain their true divinity.