Stat Mongering

[badvillain666]

Stat Mongering or as it's sometimes known as Powergaming. It's about Min/Maxing you're a character in pursuit of the "perfect build" and why it's better to not Min/Max and actually Roleplay your character. I am going to make these two separate posts because If I don't it will look like the opening crawl to Star Wars *lol*


Randomly I'm going to pick Barbarian/Monk, to illustrate my point. Because basically, it's an odd pairing, to say the least, and they basically cancel each other out.



Let's start with what "synergizes" between the two classes.

Barbarian rage goes together really well with temporary hit points

Temporary hit points are great and rage makes them last longer, so if we go with Long Death Monk for the temporary hit points we can stretch those temporary hit points out a LOT longer. This build is inevitably going to have pretty crap AC so being able to use those temp HP to tank with helps a great deal. It also fits the "brick" image of the guy who can shake off hits without getting a scratch.


Leveraging Flurry of Blows

Flurry of Blows is fun but it doesn't really do much damage. Getting a +2 bonus to rage damage helps more when you're making more attacks. Also, more attacks mean more chances for crits, and getting an advantage whenever you want means more chances for crits (reckless attack). Of course, a crit by itself isn't useful if the damage you're doubling is small and we're pretty limited on that front. That's where the Crusher feat comes in. Nice little stat boost, situationally useful knockback, and wonderful effect that procs on crits that we'll be getting more than our share of. Also, the image of you knocking people around and dazing them fits wonderfully with the brick archetype we're going for here


Elbow Drop of Doom!

This is more situational but barbarians are good at grappling (due to advantages on strength checks while raging) and monks have slow fall. This opens up the tactic of grappling someone and then simply stepping off any cliffs that are conveniently located nearby. Your enemy takes full fall damage while your damage is mitigated by rage's damage resistance and monk's slow fall. Also, this is hilarious.

Athleticism

Monks are fast and get slow fall and barbarians getting advantage on strength checks helps to use athletics to move around obstacles. Parkour!


Strike Fear Into the Hearts of Evil Doers!

One annoying thing about D&D is that strength-based characters (with the exception of paladins) generally suck at being scary (with a few exceptions like paladins). But this build gets Hour of Reaping. That's a nice added bonus.

Evasion and Danger Sense

That's a nice combo for dodging fireballs and whatnot. Shame about our sucky dex.

But What About that AC?

Yeah, this build is going to have craptacular AC. No way around that unless we have Jesus roll stats for us. Using reckless attacks all the time is just going to make that worse. So let's just say screw it and accept that we'll be easy to hit. How can we mitigate that? Well if we have enough tempt HPs we can just eat some hits. This build is also pretty good at hit-and-run attacks. If we have some tin can buddies we can hit the enemies, disengage, and then run for it. If the enemies chase us they have to eat AoOs from our buddies. But how to disengage?

Well, there's always a step of the wind but we don't want to blow ki points on that regularly. Drunk monks are great at disengaging but we want long death for the temp HPs, Eagle barbarian is also a possibility but doesn't really have enough oomph. The mobile feat is also a great choice but I think we can get some mileage out of crusher. Simply knock people back out of our faces and then move on. It isn't perfect but we can HP tank decently so that might work well enough until we can get our hands on mobile feat.

So what does this build look like?

If you're starting at level 1 taking barbarian for the extra HPs and to get rage right off the bat seems wise. If you're starting at higher levels, consider taking Monk at level 1 to laugh in the face of dex saves. Then, just like with almost any melee build, you need extra attack ASAP so take five levels in monk after the barb dip at level 1. It'll hurt to put off the second two levels of barb, but the extra attack is pretty damn important.

Then it's back to barbarian for level 2 (reckless attack!) and probably level 3 as well. For barbarian subclasses, if you pick up the mobile feat then ancestral guardian could be a great addition to hit-and-run tactics. Barbarian is also very tempting for obvious reasons.

Weapon:

-It's gotta be a quarterstaff until our martial arts damage gets higher...

Stats:

Strength: you need as much of this as you can get your hands on.

Con: HPs are always good.

Dex: you need 13 for the multiclass, not really a priority.

Int: dump!

Wis: you need 13 for the multiclass, it also helps with long death temp HPs, perhaps AC, and saves.

Cha: dump!

So it's MAD but not cripplingly so.

Race: I'd lean towards Vhuman to get the great crusher feat right off the bat.

Thoughts? It's not a powerhouse by ANY means but is it powerful enough to be fun in your average non-optimized group?


See the "problem" when you Stat Monger:

Difficulty:

Min-maxed D&D builds are all about the end goal—the level, usually very late on, where everything suddenly clicks. They often turn a whole game into a journey towards one perfect moment, choosing seemingly nonsensical class levels and abilities along the way as you pursue the point, perhaps tens of hours or more into the game, where the numbers align and the feats combo together and you become unstoppable.


You end up inverting the game's difficulty curve. The early levels, during what's meant to be the game's gentle introduction to the mechanics followed by opportunities to spread your wings and try out new powers, become an awkward fumble of trying to limp through with strange choices that won't pay off till later. All your points are in Charisma because you'll use it for all your attack rolls once you hit level 6, but right now with no Strength you can barely swing a sword; that level in Sorcerer that will be so useful later is currently only giving you a smidge of HP, a crap set of spells, and one level less of actually useful fighting ability.

After slogging through that mess, eventually, your build finally comes together… just in time to make the game's last third, where the developer wants you to experience dramatic new challenges that stretch your tactical skills and show off the power of your enemies, a complete joke. I can tell you from experience, killing a god in two swings doesn't make you feel powerful, it makes the god feel weak and pointless—and turns a grand finale into a limp anti-climax.




Narrative:

When you're making choices for your character for min-maxing reasons, you're not making choices for narrative reasons. Things that would add cool flavor or contribute to a more rounded personality are jettisoned in favor of powerful combos that have no story logic to them at all. Why did my Paladin manifest sorcerous powers early on in his career only to completely ignore them for the rest of his life? Did that add anything to the tapestry of his backstory? No, it just helped me fulfill the requirements for the Red Dragon Disciple prestige class, which also made no sense for him to have.


The rules have changed:

Even multiclassing has been deemphasized. It can still be a path to powerful combinations, but it's nowhere near as necessary as it was, and for the most part small 'dips' into other classes are no longer worth it. Sticking with one class through the whole game should be a perfectly viable way to play, and you'll still get plenty of cool toys to play with if you do.

So in conclusion: When you get through a standard playthrough of 75-100 hours.
You beat the final boss of Baldur's Gate 3 with 1 or two hits, with either your Min/Max stats
or crafted weapon of ludicrous elemental damage, you know what you're going to feel? Empty

And you're like "I'll up the difficulty level, etc... It's make the game a lot harder but the "Outcome" will still be the same with your Min/Max build.

To be continued... In Roleplaying or whatever I decide to "title it" *lol*

[Schwarz]

Kinda well said, I wish it was easier to give up this mix\max attitude :(

[badvillain666]

Originally posted by Schwarz:

Kinda well said, I wish it was easier to give up this mix\max attitude :(

I understand it's not an "easy" thing to give up. Because it's ingrained into certain gamers.
MMOs are a good example of this or games like Diablo IV. Do you remember why you started gaming in the first place?

And thank you for the positive comment :)

[Absolute 0ne]

I do prefer the roleplaying experience when I am playing, but I know some people get their enjoyment out of min/maxing too.

People who will pour over character sheets and ability scores can get a lot of enjoyment in busting out the spreadsheets.

The problem comes when people optimize a character so much that it detracts from the actual fun in playing it.

[FunkmasterTF]

This is literally a copy/paste of a post on reddit from 2 years ago. Reported

[badvillain666]

Originally posted by FunkmasterTF:

This is literally a copy/paste of a post on reddit from 2 years ago. Reported

And you're point?

[FunkmasterTF]

Originally posted by badvillain666:

Originally posted by FunkmasterTF:

This is literally a copy/paste of a post on reddit from 2 years ago. Reported

And you're point?

Your

And my point is that you're plagiarising other people's work to pass off as your own

[badvillain666]

Originally posted by FunkmasterTF:

Originally posted by badvillain666:

And you're point?

Your

And my point is that you're plagiarising other people's work to pass off as your own

No, I never claimed it was mine. If I had linked a source, do you think people would take the time to click on it? I simply reposted it.

[FunkmasterTF]

Originally posted by badvillain666:

Originally posted by FunkmasterTF:

Your

And my point is that you're plagiarising other people's work to pass off as your own

No, I never claimed it was mine. If I had linked a source, do you think people would take the time to click on it? I simply reposted it.

You posted someone's article without any credit to the creator of the content - of course that's you passing it off as your own.

[Sonic Titan]

Originally posted by badvillain666:

Originally posted by FunkmasterTF:

This is literally a copy/paste of a post on reddit from 2 years ago. Reported

And you're point?

I'm also a point!

[badvillain666]

Originally posted by Sonic Titan:

Originally posted by badvillain666:

And you're point?

I'm also a point!

Again? So. I am of two thoughts here. 1. You are both mad because you didn't think of it.
2. You're using your "trolling powers" and SJW powers to get it taken down. Trust me no body cares, but you do too. So you're both telling me in your entire life you have never stolen something from someone else? And passed it off as your own? And to that, I say yah! right *lol*

[FunkmasterTF]

Originally posted by badvillain666:

Originally posted by Sonic Titan:

I'm also a point!

So you're both telling me in your entire life you have never stolen something from someone else? And passed it off as your own?

Yes. I'm baffled at how alien a concept this appears to be.

[Tijger]

I honestly dont see the issue as long as people enjoy what they are playing then its all good.

[Revener]

Since computer games have no DM to control the difficulty and flow of the game compared to the players skills/stats. I tend to be very picky with my stats in games, even to the point of cheating a bit. Whereas in an actual live game around a table I would not care at all even if I rolled only crap stats.
Also computer games tend to be combat heavy and stats are needed for that.

I never multiclass though, only did some dual class in 2ed. 2-4 levels of fighter is a great buff at the start and is not much XP. Get a much sturdier wizard with that e.t.c.

[badvillain666]

Originally posted by Revener:

Since computer games have no DM to control the difficulty and flow of the game compared to the players skills/stats. I tend to be very picky with my stats in games, even to the point of cheating a bit. Whereas in an actual live game around a table I would not care at all even if I rolled only crap stats.
Also computer games tend to be combat heavy and stats are needed for that.

I never multiclass though, only did some dual class in 2ed. 2-4 levels of fighter is a great buff at the start and is not much XP. Get a much sturdier wizard with that e.t.c.

Fair Enough

[Shahadem]

I don't min max.

I edit my character to have the best of everything so I can get down to roleplaying without having to worry about not having the right stats to accomplish the things I want to accomplish the way I want to accomplish them.

This is partly why I hate point buy.

Point buy ONLY works for heinous helm wearing min maxers.