Paladins: Can they chose their Patron diety?

[El Presidente]

Like will we ba able to chose the God that we are serving/ are Oath sworn to? Sadly we are lacking that Option in EA

[MeldinX2]

Originally posted by Cirrus:

Originally posted by Lucky Gamer:

People are so freaked out by religion that they find the idea of an option to worship some DnD fantasy diety (that has existed in practically all DnD games, btw) to be "appalling." So much so that they view cutting out options is broadening options . It doesn't matter that it makes sense lore-wise or is logical, it offends them so it must go away.

That is simple lie. Cutting options did not happen. Religion is not mandatory anymore. But it can be done. By definition that is not cutting options, but having more options.

Your full garbage claims have no real rule basis.

Yes I hate all religions equally and do not want to roleplay them. Fortunately this game leaves the choice for me to decide what I roleplay. Nobosy has to role play things they do not want.

Where is the choice? Maybe you can still roleplay whatever you want i DnD pen an paper. But in Baldurs gate 3 the game you can't choose a patron deity on the creation screen. And that's because of 5th Edition rules.

[Jekko]

Originally posted by Paton:

Originally posted by Absolute 0ne:

Dungeon Master's Guide, Chapter 1 - "Gods of your World"
Forces and Philosophies section states:

"Divine powers do not need to be derived from deities. In some campaigns, believers hold enough conviction in their ideas about the universe that they gain magical power from that conviction. Just as druid and rangers can gain their spell ability from the force of nature rather than from a specific nature deity, some clerics devote themselves to ideals rather than to a god. Paladins might serve a philosophy of justice and chivalry rather than a specific deity."

Debate should have ended here. 5e Paladins need no god, end of story.

it's not the PHB. Relevant point:
"Although many paladins are devoted to the gods of good a paladin's power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god." You need a deity AND an oath.

On top that Dungeon Master's quote is about worldbuilding, Forgotten Realms has it's own rules, Ed Greenwood, its creator, has made it abundantly clear paladins need a deity in this setting:

One becomes a paladin by hearing and accepting a call to holy service. That acceptance is cemented by an oath. If a paladin transgresses against their oath, the usual absolution, as the PHB states, is to seek absolution from a cleric of the same faith. Paladins DO worship deities, and like any other mortal, may receive requests from mortal priests or divine servitors, or messages directly from a deity [...]

[...] Although you, as a paladin, serve a god or alliance of good gods (to literally fight evil, and do so largely ‘in your own way'[) ...]

[...] However, if your deity commands you to do something (like obey or work with a mortal priest) and you don’t, you shouldn’t expect to retain your paladinhood. What makes you a paladin is a “sacred oath,” and therefore the support of the gods [...]

[Jekko]

I'm not a religious person but the fact that some people want to inject their own RL crusades into a setting and water it down is quite baffling

[Wubbinz]

Originally posted by Jekko:

Originally posted by Paton:

Debate should have ended here. 5e Paladins need no god, end of story.

it's not the PHB. Relevant point:
"Although many paladins are devoted to the gods of good a paladin's power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god." You need a deity AND an oath.

On top that Dungeon Master's quote is about worldbuilding, Forgotten Realms has it's own rules, Ed Greenwood, its creator, has made it abundantly clear paladins need a deity in this setting:

One becomes a paladin by hearing and accepting a call to holy service. That acceptance is cemented by an oath. If a paladin transgresses against their oath, the usual absolution, as the PHB states, is to seek absolution from a cleric of the same faith. Paladins DO worship deities, and like any other mortal, may receive requests from mortal priests or divine servitors, or messages directly from a deity [...]

[...] Although you, as a paladin, serve a god or alliance of good gods (to literally fight evil, and do so largely ‘in your own way'[) ...]

[...] However, if your deity commands you to do something (like obey or work with a mortal priest) and you don’t, you shouldn’t expect to retain your paladinhood. What makes you a paladin is a “sacred oath,” and therefore the support of the gods [...]

I get that you don't like the new rules and that's fine but it very clearly states divinity doesn't necessarily come from a god. Therefore in 5e Paladins don't need to be religious. You can talk around it all you like but the fact is right there in black and white.

"Divine powers do not need to be derived from deities."

[Jekko]

Originally posted by Paton:

"Divine powers do not need to be derived from deities."

again, this quote is not in the PHB but about worldbuilding in the Dungeon's Master guide, and not relevant to the rules of the Forgotten Realms setting

[Wubbinz]

Originally posted by Jekko:

Originally posted by Paton:

"Divine powers do not need to be derived from deities."

again, this quote is not in the PHB but about worldbuilding in the Dungeon's Master guide, and not relevant to the rules of the Forgotten Realms setting

I mean if you're trying to make the case that the dungeon masters guide isn't relevant to 5e then by all means go for it. I'm not going to take that argument with any kind of seriousness of course.

I'd also point out that Paladins in the current BG3 game aren't religious by default. When you do evil, you don't go and seek a cleric of the same faith to get absolution like a religious Paladin would. Some custodian of the fallen rocks up who can forgive you or make you an oathbreaker.

[everybe2]

No, there will be no Deity for Paladins.

[Jekko]

Originally posted by Paton:

Originally posted by Jekko:

again, this quote is not in the PHB but about worldbuilding in the Dungeon's Master guide, and not relevant to the rules of the Forgotten Realms setting

I mean if you're trying to make the case that the dungeon masters guide isn't relevant to 5e then by all means go for it. I'm not going to take that argument with any kind of seriousness of course.

I'd also point out that Paladins in the current BG3 game aren't religious by default. When you do evil, you don't go and seek a cleric of the same faith to get absolution like a religious Paladin would. Some custodian of the fallen rocks up who can forgive you or make you an oathbreaker.

It's literally a section about homebrewing, not relevant to the Forgetten Realms. If Larian decides to homebrew then that's another issue alltogether, but by default paladins NEED a deity:
"YOUR WORLD IS THE SETTING OF YOUR CAMPAIGN, the place where adventures happen. Even if you use an existing setting, such as the Forgotten Realms, It becomes yours as you set your adventures there, create characters to inhabit it, and make changes to it over the course of your campaign. This chapter is all about building your world and then creating a campaign to take place in it.

[Wubbinz]

Originally posted by Jekko:

Originally posted by Paton:

I mean if you're trying to make the case that the dungeon masters guide isn't relevant to 5e then by all means go for it. I'm not going to take that argument with any kind of seriousness of course.

I'd also point out that Paladins in the current BG3 game aren't religious by default. When you do evil, you don't go and seek a cleric of the same faith to get absolution like a religious Paladin would. Some custodian of the fallen rocks up who can forgive you or make you an oathbreaker.

It's literally a section about homebrewing, not relevant to the Forgetten Realms. If Larian decides to homebrew then that's another issue alltogether, but by default paladins NEED a deity:
"YOUR WORLD IS THE SETTING OF YOUR CAMPAIGN, the place where adventures happen. Even if you use an existing setting, such as the Forgotten Realms, It becomes yours as you set your adventures there, create characters to inhabit it, and make changes to it over the course of your campaign. This chapter is all about building your world and then creating a campaign to take place in it.

Always an excuse. "this is about world building", "Larian are homebrewing". What's weird is that you keep telling me I need to have a deity as a Paladin but I've been playing non-religious/god hating Paladins for like 3 years. Something aint adding up, chief. Seems to me like you just disagree with the current rules and rather than face facts you're just pretending they're not what they are.

[Jekko]

Originally posted by Paton:

Always an excuse.

I posted the relevant quotes from the Player Handbook and the creator of the Forgotten Realms setting, which clearly state you need a deity. Then I contextualized that quote about paladins not needing a deity, which is about your OWN homebrew campaign or world, not a 5e general rule.

[Wubbinz]

Originally posted by Jekko:

Originally posted by Paton:

Always an excuse.

I posted the relevant quotes from the Player Handbook and the creator of the Forgotten Realms setting, which clearly state you need a deity. Then I contextualized that quote about paladins not needing a deity, which is about your OWN homebrew campaign or world, not a 5e general rule.

If I need a deity then why have I not needed a deity for 3 years? Even played 2 official modules in the forgotten realms with atheistic Paladins.

[ShadowBastard69]

just roll a war domain cleric its almost the same thing as an old school paly , the only real difference if im not mistaken is you dont get smite and auras but instead get better (and more) divine spells. could even pick Helm or Lathander as your diety and do the whole knight in shining armor role play. idk, just a suggestion.

[ihatevnecks]

Originally posted by Jekko:

Originally posted by Paton:

Always an excuse.

I posted the relevant quotes from the Player Handbook and the creator of the Forgotten Realms setting, which clearly state you need a deity. Then I contextualized that quote about paladins not needing a deity, which is about your OWN homebrew campaign or world, not a 5e general rule.

The relevant quotes from the guy who wrote the Player's Handbook:

Some paladins serve a god or a group of gods. Some paladins don't.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/783780541413806081?s=20

"A paladin's oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion"
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/783783267065401344?s=20

This is accurate in the PHB, so it's accurate in the 5E Forgotten Realms, because the Realms are the default setting for 5E (including the PHB), just as Greyhawk was the default for 3E and Points of Light was the default for 4E. This is further reinforced by paladins being a CHA-based class rather than WIS-based; their power comes from within, and is channeled through their devotion to the Oath.

If you want a further example, read the description for the Oath of the Crown from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (a Forgotten Realms product):

"The Oath of the Crown is sworn to the ideals of civilization, be it the spirit of a nation, fealty to a sovereign, or service to a deity of law and rulership.

Note the bolded part; the use of "or" denotes a single option, not an absolute. Service to a god is not a requirement.

Greenwood may have created the Realms, and that may have been the status quo for Realms paladins for previous editions, but as written in 5E paladins don't require a relationship with or service to a god - even in the Realms.

The End. Have fun continuing the arguments :)

[Yojo0o]

It's not an anti-religion thing, jeez. Clerics are still huge.

Paladins are shifted towards gaining power through their oaths to distinguish themselves thematically from clerics, as well as to make room for martial cleric domains. Otherwise, what's the difference between a War Cleric of Torm and a Paladin of Torm, other than their kit? They'd both just be warrior-priests worshipping the same god and behaving largely the same in a fight, but arbitrarily given different mechanics to play with in the game.

[El Presidente]

*slams down the Neckbeard Hammer of Justice*


The Court has come to a conclusion. We issue a restraining Order to Paton and Jekko. They have to stay at least one thread away of each other. OP is to gain full Custody of the Thread. No further Conclusions on Paladins have been made.