Is Wisdom and Intelligence useless for Sorcerer in combat?

[Mikaelh]

For role-playing reasons I want to create a charismatic, intelligent and wise Sorcerer. But according to what I've read this is not a good idea for combat. Instead I should go for Dexterity/Constitution in addition to Charisma. Don't Intelligence and Wisdom give any bonuses for combat? I know they contribute to the saving throw (so defense) - but is that good enough or do I have to dump most of my extra points into Dexterity/Constitution?

[Recjawjind]

All int and wis give you is a bonus to the respective skill checks and saving throws.

In terms of combat effectiveness, they are definitely tertiary.

You can build a character however you like, however
Cha > Dex > Con is how you want to allocate for effectiveness.

[Garee]

From a pure combat perspective they do nothing for you. CHA for damage, CON for health, DEX for AC. int/str/wis for sorc will mostly be just for saving throw checks.

[Clovis Sangrail]

Originally posted by Garee:

From a pure combat perspective they do nothing for you. CHA for damage, CON for health, DEX for AC. int/str/wis for sorc will mostly be just for saving throw checks.

And since DEX also affects the use of ranged weapons and finesse weapons, it does double duty along with boosting AC.

Same with CHA affecting Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation, and Performance checks.

My current Sorcerer is 10 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, and 16 CHR. Good AC and Hit points because he is also Draconic Bloodline, with that DEX he's +5 with a light crossbow if it comes to it.

[Recjawjind]

Originally posted by Clovis Sangrail:

And since DEX also affects the use of ranged weapons and finesse weapons, it does double duty along with boosting AC.

Same with CHA affecting Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation, and Performance checks.

My current Sorcerer is 10 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, and 16 CHR. Good AC and Hit points because he is also Draconic Bloodline, with that DEX he's +5 with a light crossbow if it comes to it.

Pretty quickly your cantrips are gonna be better than ranged weapons, the main benefit other than damage avoidance from AC and dex saves is gonna be initiative.

[Mikaelh]

Sad that I can't go for CHA, WIS and INT and have it benefiting me in combat. :/ I want my character to have these characteristics. How about if I do multiclass? Throw in Wizard also (then I can put points into Intelligence). Is Sorcerer/Wizard a viable combination?

[Recjawjind]

Originally posted by Mikaelh:

Sad that I can't go for CHA, WIS and INT and have it benefiting me in combat. :/ I want my character to have these characteristics. How about if I do multiclass? Throw in Wizard also (then I can put points into Intelligence). Is Sorcerer/Wizard a viable combination?

They use different stats, so you can either be
1: Good at one and bad at the other
2: Extremely mediocre at both
3: Decent at both but really really squishy

If you want to multiclass different casters, pick ones that scale off of the same stats.

[Clovis Sangrail]

Originally posted by Recjawjind:

Originally posted by Clovis Sangrail:

And since DEX also affects the use of ranged weapons and finesse weapons, it does double duty along with boosting AC.

Same with CHA affecting Persuasion, Deception, Intimidation, and Performance checks.

My current Sorcerer is 10 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, and 16 CHR. Good AC and Hit points because he is also Draconic Bloodline, with that DEX he's +5 with a light crossbow if it comes to it.

Pretty quickly your cantrips are gonna be better than ranged weapons, the main benefit other than damage avoidance from AC and dex saves is gonna be initiative.

I forgot about initiative, another benefit of high DEX.

I know cantrips will outdo a crossbow eventually, but for starters, if you have a char with 16 DEX and you don't stick some kind of ranged weapon in his hands, you're just throwing away opportunity, If I can get 4 - 11 damage with a crossbow, and only 1-10 with best cantrip, I not to proud to prang someone's ass with the crossbow.

[Mikaelh]

I guess I'll play the game on normal first and choose stats that I want to role-play with instead of min-maxing my character. And then I'll play through it again on Tactician mode min-maxed.

[cool skill]

Unfortunately, D&D has had many great improvements over the years. Charisma rules took a nose dive. Sorcs did indeed used to be intelligence based casting. Same with bards. But they decided to make Charisma a gimmick rather than use it effectively the way it was intended. The games I run replace all the Charisma casting rules with Intelligence. And use charisma for what it's actually meant for. Which is non-combat game play. Prior to the change, the closest effect charisma had on combat was how many retainers you could hire. Because a major part of the original game is that you could hire retainers (soldiers) similar to having pets that help with combat. Also perhaps effects on morale. Because a major part of D&D gameplay is non-combat with Charisma playing a big factor in how much you can do.

So for me playing. The first thing I prioritize is getting high Charisma. Then distributing my stats with points left over. So with original rules, a Sorc would actually get most benefit off of Intelligence stat. And you would only add points into Charisma depending on how you would like your character to interact outside of combat. Not for role play, but with actual mechanical benefit. So you could opt for more points into combat stats which would diminish your capabilities outside of combat when interacting with NPCs. Likewise, you could reduce some of your combat stats in favor of boosting Charisma to get advantages outside of combat.

[UmbralAngel]

In a game with a Mind Flayer on the box, every point of int you can spare in char gen will help ;)

[Recjawjind]

Originally posted by cool skill:

Unfortunately, D&D has had many great improvements over the years. Charisma rules took a nose dive. Sorcs did indeed used to be intelligence based casting. Same with bards. But they decided to make Charisma a gimmick rather than use it effectively the way it was intended. The games I run replace all the Charisma casting rules with Intelligence. And use charisma for what it's actually meant for. Which is non-combat game play. Prior to the change, the closest effect charisma had on combat was how many retainers you could hire. Because a major part of the original game is that you could hire retainers (soldiers) similar to having pets that help with combat. Also perhaps effects on morale. Because a major part of D&D gameplay is non-combat with Charisma playing a big factor in how much you can do.

IDK which edition you're talking about that had sorcs and bards be int based, but I certainly don't recall that ever being a thing.

[UmbralAngel]

Sorcerers and Bards were INT based in 2nd Edition and CHA based in 3.0 and more recent editions

[Recjawjind]

Originally posted by UmbralAngel:

Sorcerers and Bards were int based in 2E and CHA based in 3E and more recent editions

Ah, haven't been around for 2e, a bit before my time. Fair enough.

[cool skill]

Originally posted by Recjawjind:

sorcs and bards be int based, but I certainly don't recall that ever being a thing.

What? They have always used intelligence as prime requisite. Originally Bard was a prestige class so you had to have high scores in multiple stats that included charisma. But it then changed into a subclass of thief in AD&D 2e where bard was fleshed out. It did require a minimum charisma score. But charisma was never used as the main spellcasting ability. It fully used Intelligence for casting.

[Friends with Benedicts]

AFAIK there aint no wis/int/cha viable builds in literally any rpg, maybe fallout with int/cha (doesnt have wisdom).

standard rpgs go like this: Wizards/mages are intelligent students, they use books, they use INT. Druids/shamans and other sages are wise, they are akin to monks with wealth being equal to knowledge to them, they use staffs and such and WIS. Sorcerers and other innate talented genetic gift are golden boys, gifted from birth to have power. They are not intelligent and much less wise, they have huge egos and love being born with power. They have CHARISMA as their core stat and its what drives them.

Its a flawed logic, I know, but it helps me with my builds in many rpgs.