Wrath of the Righteous was a superior RPG

[Stranger]

So many options to tailor the experience you wanted to have in the game. From custom difficulty where you could have a ton of enemies but also have them at low health with combat debuffs so that you could have some wuxia power fantasy or really few enemies with overpowering abilities if case you wanted that Elder Scrolls-esque feel.

At character creation you got a complete breakdown of every race, every class, every archtype so you could spend as much time as you wanted really pouring over the, what, like thirty options it offered and figure out what you wanted to play. Want to be a rogue who was more of a military scout than a pick pocket? You can do that. How about an inner city ranger with a faithful hound? That's an option. Want to be a wizard who has a passion for sword duels? That is there too. How about a front line fighter who knows how to read a battlefield and make tactical decisions which will see his squad through to victory? Absolutely. No matter what you had ever seen in a film or read in a book, whatever manga or fantasy art had captured your imagination, you could find a way to make something really close to it.

The story was structured with a hell of a lot greater cohesion without being heavy handed about it. At no point was there any confusion about what you needed to do and at no point did any of the NPCs or companions try to push you out of the driver's seat by trying to dictate what you needed to next. At most NPCs would give you a general goal or direction and leave it to you to figure out how to resolve it, It was a bit linear really and that is one area where this title might have a slight advantage, but it was also much more solid and grounded.

Also, the only random individuals jumping out of bushes to shank you were actual enemies and didn't expect to treat you with total disdain and then be taken in as a friend.

I preferred the companions and story of Kingmaker, but Wrath of the Righteous was such an overhaul of the interface and general polish that I just can't enjoy the actual gameplay ever again and will probably never touch it in the future. Not too worried about that really, I don't have the time to play games like this more than once or twice a year.

It wasn't a perfect game (I could have done without the Crusade battles altogether honestly) but the more I play this the more annoyed I become with some of the design/direction taken in this title which seemed to have totally ignored everything that game got right. Even the UI. In Kingmaker one of your companions Lizzi decides to write a book about you and your exploits after you save her life and so every interface, every panel looks like a book or the sort of charcoal sketch you would see in a book with faded and yellowed parchment to match the period. In WoTR they continue that but with greater subtlety, paying homage to where everything started but also going their own direction. It was perfect. Going back a long long time ago there was game called Arcanum which was a mix of steampunk and fantasy and the UI reflected both of those aesthetics with little gears and rough hewn wood panels and stone inlay. . .What do we get here? Some gold filigree, a black background, some drab browns to make text easier to read but no theme, no artistry, no real thought or reflection on the game itself. It isn't even pleasing to look at it, it is almost as though the only thought it was made with was making sure you didn't look at it long enough to even really notice it.

I don't want to get into anything specific and ruin the experience for anyone playing this or who might play the other, but I think I have made my point without needing to. This really isn't a bad game and I am not trying to suggest it is. . .I just don't understand why it isn't better than it is. I hear GOTY and GOAT tossed around here and honestly I just don't see it. Its good but its not great. . .And it really could have been.

[Wyzilla]

Baldur's Gate is actually accurate to the TT mechanics in depth. Wrath of the Righteous is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ joke and completely unrelated to the TT balance. I'd rather play the game that actually is a proper RPG experience than the one which requires munchkin gameplay to survive at all and all upgrades and spells are purely about staying above the enemy's buffs rather than immersion. ♥♥♥♥ Owlcat. Plus my game hasn't crashed once in BG3 post release whereas I always get random CTD's after a couple hours with Owlcat games.

[Bash Arkin]

Gimme actually good turn based and i'd consider this true (maybe)

[VanillaH]

i love BG3, but i absolutely adore WOTR. Both games aren't perfect, not by a long shot. Maybe, i just love "grander" feeling, OR WOTR being ultimate power fantasy, dunno, don't really care.

[Not a Cop]

I love WotR but I didn't know it was competing with this game.

[Quillithe]

Publicado originalmente por VanillaH:

i love BG3, but i absolutely adore WOTR. Both games aren't perfect, not by a long shot. Maybe, i just love "grander" feeling, OR WOTR being ultimate power fantasy, dunno, don't really care.

There's definitely room for both. Agreed on WotR being far more power fantasy.

I personally like how BG 3 feels more down-to-earth and how much time I spend not just murdering my way through faceless hordes, but involved in things besides combat. WotR is much more combat heavy.

But not gonna lie, totally understand the appeal on murdering your way through faceless hordes as an angel lol.

[corisai]

Publicado originalmente por Wyzilla:

Baldur's Gate is actually accurate to the TT mechanics in depth. Wrath of the Righteous is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ joke and completely unrelated to the TT balance. I'd rather play the game that actually is a proper RPG experience than the one which requires munchkin gameplay to survive at all and all upgrades and spells are purely about staying above the enemy's buffs rather than immersion.

That's not true at all. Playing WotR on Easy (or even Casual) - not require any deep knowledge of game mechanics or "being munchkin". Players just get used that "normal" difficulty is actually easy one as devs abusing players ego :)

P.S. Having some experience with Pathfinder 1e - you can complete WotR on Core difficulty using only default classes of companions.

[Naked Granny]

Both of the Pathfinder games have vastly superior character customization options available, both cosmetically and also in terms of mechanical implementation.

This is not controversial or surprising. BG3 is shackled to 5th edition D&D which is infamous for how simplified and minimalistic and dumbed down it is. No one playing tabletop games for more than a year or two sticks with D&D, so just... like... be aware. Literally no one will want a D&D fan at their table unless that player is intentionally trying to grow as a person to become a decent roleplayer. Above and beyond how abusive WotC is as a company.

In terms of story design, character development and emotional impact, both of the Pathfinder games are larger in scope, but roughly similar in terms of interactions you can have with other characters. The Pathfinder games are also larger in terms of dungeon design. The only thing BG3 has over them is that you can move objects around in the world to decorate your little campsite with clutter. But, again, in terms of RPG design - both story content and mechanical depth - the Pathfinder games absolutely dominate BG3.

I'm not saying BG3 is bad.

It's a great game!

But the use of 5th edition D&D for its mechanics was a profoundly crippling mistake on Larian's part. The voice acting and environment designs are great, but they can't make up for the completely disappointing gameplay mechanics.

[Vash The Stampede]

My expectation for this game was for it to be more like the previous Baldurs Gate titles. What it is more like is Divinity. To be fair my expectations of this game are and always would have been high because it is called Baldurs Gate. Not a bad game to be sure, but it falls short of my admittedly high expectations.

[Quillithe]

Publicado originalmente por Naked Granny:

In terms of story design, character development and emotional impact, both of the Pathfinder games are larger in scope, but roughly similar in terms of interactions you can have with other characters. The Pathfinder games are also larger in terms of dungeon design. The only thing BG3 has over them is that you can move objects around in the world to decorate your little campsite with clutter. But, again, in terms of RPG design - both story content and mechanical depth - the Pathfinder games absolutely dominate BG3.

Pathfinder dungeons are a lot less carefully handcrafted though. There's a lot of copy and paste rooms and enemy groups, and the environment is almost never important in any way.

Larger dungeons isn't always better - heck, look at Daggerfall vs Morrowind.

[NixAhmose]

Publicado originalmente por catgirlforeskin:

Publicado originalmente por Kyutaru:

WOTR is a great meme game where you can custom build your ultimate power fantasy character to stomp through enemies who never stood a chance against you because you stacked more buffs than the literal gods have in THEIR spellbooks. Not all memes are equal and some memes are horribly weak compared to other ones, but with the power of Teamwork and Out of Combat Cheating, anything is possible. You don't even need to pause. Watch that deathball go!

But if you prefer tactics in your tactical RPG, if you feel like positioning should mean more than just a +2 attack bonus for flanking when your character already has +38, if you want a dragon to actually feel like a threat and not statistically inferior to suped up Monk who can go toe-to-toe with one, if you don't want to be a superhero but actually fight something STRONGER than you are and STILL WIN, then play a turn-based RPG like 5e-inspired Baldur's Gate 3. Or Shadowrun. Or Planescape: Torment.

saying 5e is more tactical than pathfinder lmao. ok man, and call of duty is more tactical than arma 3. checkers more tactical than chess

I mean, it’s more like saying chess is more tactical than checkers. In Pathfinder the enemy have brain dead AI, the environments are all functionally the same flat spaces that have little to no impact on the fight, and by level 7 tactical decisions become irrelevant as fights devolve into “who has the biggest stat numbers”.

[Miro Fox]

Pathfinder is the superior system.

they did what they could with a gimped system, and its a pretty good game.

[Jaggid Edje]

I quit playing Wrath of the Righteous after 48 hours of play and never finished it. The game was riddled with bugs, so many spells and feats simply didn't work the way they were supposed to, which means builds you had planned and been working toward simply wouldn't work. All that effort gone to waste. Unless you spent hours googling and searching the internet to find out if any part of the build was bugged.

The writing is also subpar, though I wouldn't say BG2 has particularly great writing either.

And the developers took a heavy-handed and lazy approach to trying to 'increase difficulty" by having the start of many battles strip you of your buffs and move your party into a disadvantageous position.

Hardly a "great game". It could have been so much more than it was.

Mind you, I quit playing it 2 months after release. So perhaps at least all the broken spells and feats are fixed now. Too little too late though. I lost all of my respect for Owlcat.

[corisai]

Publicado originalmente por NixAhmose:

the environments are all functionally the same flat spaces that have little to no impact on the fight

You seriously think "environments" of Divinity 3 BG 3 is a good thing? C'mon - not every anime is that silly: explosive barrels all around and kicking armed enemies off a cliff (good luck trying to do it IRL).

[A$AP Ancop]

yes, I agree, for roleplaying WOTR is an edge better, way way more dialogue choices around the classes and mythic classes, but BG3 has the AAA quality, both are fantastic games and I recommend both games.

[corisai]

Publicado originalmente por Jaggid Edje:

And the developers took a heavy-handed and lazy approach to trying to 'increase difficulty" by having the start of many battles strip you of your buffs

That happen in a single (!) boss fight in vanilla WotR. You're either imagine things or played modded game.