On the fence, help appreciated

[Joikax]

Hi there fellas; So as the title implies I'm on the fence about getting this game but I highly fear that it might not be for me and I'm having a hard time deciding especially when the game offers nothing in the way of a demo and such and the price (and type of game) isn't generous enough for me to take a gamble and relly on steam's 2hour refund policy either.

I think my main gripes are with the combat system as everything else seems to be standard RPG stuff with the dialogue options and outcomes relevant to character stats with some dice rolls in the mix... nothing too out of the ordinary there.



Some background: I have played many RPGs (and MMORPGs, whether that's relevant or not for the progression systems), some with dice rolls such as KOTOR1&2 for example but never played actual physical tabletops nor DnD. Many years ago I played Dungeons and Dragons Online but that was probably the closest I ever got to this game's systems and while I enjoyed it anyone that has played it before can tell it is very light hearted and easy to get into (which it appears to me BG3 is not, in comparison).

What I mean with this last paragraph is that I'm not a total stranger to BG3's systems and how to play but I'm not secure enough in my assessments to be able to judge the game without your help.






When I look at BG3 gameplay (the combat part that is) the most imediate thinking I get when I see the action is: Ability Bloat. I'm just looking at it, people praising it and whatnot, and all I see is options upon options upon options of abilities and the players/youtubers just drifting off looking at them one by one for minutes on end rather than engaging with the combat naturally... and from what it seems, most of the time they just use random abilities that sound nice in the moment without a care for what comes next anyway... and they still end up beating their enemies effortlessly regardless.

... And I'm just there thinking to myself.... why? What's so special about it and why are people praising it when most players seem to end up just using whatever whenever with no actual strategy behind any of it? If those abilities trully were that imperative and necessary to have why is it that most players seem to resort to what akins to random button mashing instead? Convoluted and nuanced combat systems are not one and the same....

Now, I don't know whether all those abilities are useful or meant to be employed in combat and whatnot but like shouldn't a few buffs/debuffs/cleanses/attacks be enough for this kind of game? What is being gained from having multiple wheels/tabs with like over 20 different abilities/spells per character? (seems way over that number but I'm lowballing it) Are all of them really necessary or even relevant to combat? How do you even keep track of every possible combo you can make between characters or even between spells within one character without taking half hour to ultimatelly employ them in a thoughtful and logic manner? All this and nowhere have I even mentioned enemy abilities which also come into the mix and need to be taken into consideration aswell...

It kinda puts me off knowing I'm the kind of person to minmax turnbased combat and easily take a very long time defining least-resistance-strategies before employing them even in games with few abilities to keep track of.
I can see myself possibly getting overwhelmed and putting down the game in frustration as a result... and if the choice between abilities is rolling a more difficult dice for a slightly higher potential damage payoff I find that equally annoying and senseless.





Okay okay, ramblings aside, is this really all the combat is or is there more to it I'm not getting? Because not even reviewers and youtubers seem to be able to explain cohesivelly how combat really works besides "hurr, it's turn based" so it's possible I'm missing something here. But if I'm not, is my assessment correct?... And if so does it seem like I would be the kind of person/player to enjoy it? Is the Roleplay part of the game so good it would trump my grievances with the (seemingly confusing) combat?

Thank you in advance and sorry for the wall of text and possible misinterpretation of core game systems.

[tainawoman]

I've only played for a few hours and I'm only level 3, but I don't think that choosing abilities is the focus of this game. Til now I think it's very simple, at least comparing this system with the Pathfinder one (which I really love).
My favorite video RPGs in the last several years were Pillars of Eternity (1, not 2), Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous and BG3 will probably be one of them. But I think that in BG3 the focus are the story, the companions stories and the videos for almost every interaction with NPC. It's very cinematic and nice, not extra long and boring videos. Also I think there are not many fluff fights, only properly designed and tactical.
If you love fantasy RPG, my advice is to play these 3 games. It's a system and if you play only one of them, you can easily learn how to apply to leveling and multiclassing in all of them. Pathfinder WOTR has the best building of characters, it's simply a delight and in PoE I loved everything, including building your own castle.

[Nazkai]

Originally posted by tainawoman:

I've only played for a few hours and I'm only level 3, but I don't think that choosing abilities is the focus of this game. Til now I think it's very simple, at least comparing this system with the Pathfinder one (which I really love).
My favorite video RPGs in the last several years were Pillars of Eternity (1, not 2), Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous and BG3 will probably be one of them. But I think that in BG3 the focus are the story, the companions stories and the videos for almost every interaction with NPC. It's very cinematic and nice, not extra long and boring videos. Also I think there are not many fluff fights, only properly designed and tactical.
If you love fantasy RPG, my advice is to play these 3 games. It's a system and if you play only one of them, you can easily learn how to apply to leveling and multiclassing in all of them. Pathfinder WOTR has the best building of characters, it's simply a delight and in PoE I loved everything, including building your own castle.

Agreed with this take - i personally find the combat interesting and would like even more options but that's just me.

[Tzyder]

its not ready for release. No in game documentation/civilopedia for the complicated 5e rules. Broken and out of date tooltips. Overbloom on gfx and uncanny valley eyes on the NPCS. To think in 2023 a RPG game comes out with no way to plan your character. Shame!

[dulany67]

Combat can be difficult, and just watching may make it seem more effortless than it is.

[Elrodeus]

Originally posted by Joikax:

Hi there fellas; So as the title implies I'm on the fence about getting this game but I highly fear that it might not be for me...

I think my main gripes are with the combat system as everything else seems to be standard RPG stuff with the dialogue options and outcomes relevant to character stats with some dice rolls in the mix... nothing too out of the ordinary there.

...When I look at BG3 gameplay (the combat part that is) the most imediate thinking I get when I see the action is: Ability Bloat...

So in my opinion nothing in this game is "out of the ordinary" including combat since this is the standard in which all RPG's were designed (it's literally based on turn based DnD).

With that said, there have been changes that were made to abilities in combat SPECIFICALLY for this games release that weren't present in a campaign of original DnD. It doesn't sound like you're interested on why they added these abilities and more interested in how many there are.

"Ability Bloat" will mostly depend on how YOU build your character. You can choose to pick passives and stat boosts and less abilities. That's possible to do. Personally I think the combat is alot of fun. There are a wide range of abilities, but how and when you use them IS important since many spells can only be used once per day (in game) or only once per short rest (in game) or even once per battle. So as a battle drags on your "ability bloat" can quickly turn into "I don't have enough spells/abilities to win this fight".

I can't really say if this game will be for you or not, as the complexity can definitely turn some people off, but in spite of my complaints about the game, I would still recommend it as I feel so far it's been a very fun experience for me.

[Sirvival]

Originally posted by Tzyder:

its not ready for release. No in game documentation/civilopedia for the complicated 5e rules. Broken and out of date tooltips. Overbloom on gfx and uncanny valley eyes on the NPCS. To think in 2023 a RPG game comes out with no way to plan your character. Shame!

they released now because of Starfield

[Hex:ual Tension]

Okay, so some characters can have a lot going on - mostly spellcasters. Wizards for instance can learn spells from scrolls, druids have wildshape as well as spells, etc etc.

But you're only going to have a fraction of those spells prepared at any given point. Some of them are useful during conversations, to put out fires, distract people for stealth, etc. Some are good in combat.

The amount of options available aren't really that overwhelming once you decide on a class and play. It's only on character creation where you seemingly have 1000 options and you don't know what to play that there's much of an issue.

[Jaggid Edje]

If you are familiar with the core system, there's not really any ability bloat other than the fact that most weapon types give one or two(ish) weapon-specific special attacks, like tripping someone, making them bleed, etc. Those weapon-specific abilities mostly are one-per-short-rest.
Beyond that, everything is standard D&D stuff. So no, not really ability bloat at all, imo. Unless you think DnD itself has ability bloat.

But if you mean compared to modern action-rpg games where you only have access to like...5 or 6 ability options per character, sure, it does.

[SmashingQuasar]

I own this game, I am playing it in Tactician difficulty currently and I have been playing TTRPGs for a very long time.

I'm going to tell you to avoid this game for your own sake. It's a good game (not a great game, a good game), it has many, many flaws that are mostly due to DnD 5th Ed being a mediocre TTRPG (in my opinion) and if you are not into TTRPGs then you will tremendously hate the combat system. I'm telling you, the combat system is not for everyone and is the source of a lot of frustration for many people. It's really niche and it is NOT like Divinity: Original Sin 1 & 2. It is a lot more random and lot less controllable.

Now if you just want to play a good RPG for the story, sure, pick the game but play on Explorer mode.

In my opinion, it's not that BG3 was not ready for release, it's more that WotC massacred the talent that Larian has displayed in D:OS 2.

[Joikax]

Originally posted by Elrodeus:

"Ability Bloat" will mostly depend on how YOU build your character. You can choose to pick passives and stat boosts and less abilities. That's possible to do. Personally I think the combat is alot of fun. There are a wide range of abilities, but how and when you use them IS important since many spells can only be used once per day (in game) or only once per short rest (in game) or even once per battle. So as a battle drags on your "ability bloat" can quickly turn into "I don't have enough spells/abilities to win this fight".

The "How and When" part of the deal is fine but using that as a masquerade to have dozens upon dozens upon dozens of different abilities, most of them being irrelevant on a per situation basis and clogging your selection, is just needless bloat for the sake of trying to make the game seem more deep than it actually is.
Picture a game like XCOM and its overwatch mechanic/ability except now you have Overwatch in a circle, overwatch in a cone, overwatch in a line, overwatch against a particular enemy... it's just needless bloat and doesn't add anything to the combat when all is said and done. Some people might find that appealing or even necessary but that's what mods are for.

Much the same way, if the rule of combat dictates that "if you run out of spell pool you are most likelly going to lose" that's just a lame excuse to have people resting between each and every encounter whether they have lots or few abilities in their builds, which in itself is already a terrible mechanic to begin with but since it's an oldschool DnD rule everyone's suposed to be fine with it.

[Sador]

The game is based on D&D 5e, which in itself is a massive simplification of D&D 3.5e, which really did have so many spells, abilities, feats and other stuff. A lot of people grew up with that and love it, while others may not. 5e has made it a lot simpler and a lot more straightforward, for the most part.

I don't think it'll be as bad as you think, as you start with level 1 characters with a few specific spells or abilities, and that's about it. This gives you some time to see what they're like and experiment with them, and as you progress through the game you'll get stronger and gradually get access to more stuff that you can use. Sort of like your typical RPG, really.

With that being said, if you already feel like it's going to annoy you already, I would just not get it. The game is definitely about different skills, things interacting with each other and clever solutions to problems, so if you think it's not going to be fun for you, it probably isn't. Not everyone likes the same things, and that's okay.

[Joikax]

Originally posted by Hex:ual Tension:

Okay, so some characters can have a lot going on - mostly spellcasters. Wizards for instance can learn spells from scrolls, druids have wildshape as well as spells, etc etc.

But you're only going to have a fraction of those spells prepared at any given point. Some of them are useful during conversations, to put out fires, distract people for stealth, etc. Some are good in combat.

The amount of options available aren't really that overwhelming once you decide on a class and play. It's only on character creation where you seemingly have 1000 options and you don't know what to play that there's much of an issue.

Interesting take, I shall take this comment into account; Thank you.

[Wavelord]

Spells are limited to a few that the wizard/sorcerer prepared.
They basically have to memorize a selection what they want to use the next day from their big spellbook.

Use is limited by spell slots. You cant cast 20 Fireballs in a row.

After that magic users have to resort to use weaker versions called cantrips. Unlimited use but weaker. They might even use a Crossbow to finish of an enemiy.


The combination of the game systems gives a lot of freedom to combat.

[Joikax]

Originally posted by Jaggid Edje:

If you are familiar with the core system, there's not really any ability bloat other than the fact that most weapon types give one or two(ish) weapon-specific special attacks, like tripping someone, making them bleed, etc. Those weapon-specific abilities mostly are one-per-short-rest.
Beyond that, everything is standard D&D stuff. So no, not really ability bloat at all, imo. Unless you think DnD itself has ability bloat.

But if you mean compared to modern action-rpg games where you only have access to like...5 or 6 ability options per character, sure, it does.

Action RPGs do have that habit of having much fewer ability choices. I'm no stranger to games that have like 4 or 5 10slot hotbars of abilities but very rarelly have I ever felt like any ability went to waste there. With this game, for some reason, when I look at what the combat looks like, it feels like you trully don't need more than maybe 10 per character if that... yet I'm seeing people's UI on youtube jampacked with dozens upon dozens of abilities... and they still only use or consider a very select few nonetheless.... and that's what puts me off.

[Jaggid Edje]

Originally posted by Joikax:

that... yet I'm seeing people's UI on youtube jampacked with dozens upon dozens of abilities... and they still only use or consider a very select few nonetheless.... and that's what puts me off.

That's the nature of the ruleset the game uses (DnD). Some classes have a LOT of choices, many of which are situational. Most, however, do not. It's easy enough to just not bring any of the spellcasters that get a ton of choices.

Wizards, for example, are the arcane class that gets a ton of options in terms of spells. Use a warlock instead as your arcane caster, and that is trimmed down to a very small number.

I think you're also seeing a lot of stuff on the hotbar in those videos which aren't combat abilities, but rather common actions that every character gets. Jump, Hide, Dash, Dip, Shove, Help, Throw object, improvise weapon, and disengage are all common actions all characters get. That's 9 things on the hotbar just to cover those, but I would not call them "abilities".

And then there's items. Potions, scrolls, special arrows, grenade-like objects are all useable items which can be put on the hotbar but those also aren't "abilities", they are "items".