Baldur's Gate 3

Baldur's Gate 3

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A.J Aug 6, 2023 @ 3:30pm
A "High Elf" that willingly worships Lolth is an insult to Elven lore.
Elves are very closely tied to Corellon Larethian as their "father". Lolth despises elves and the Seldarine in the entirety. It just doesn't happen that an elf willingly decides to abandon the Seldarine and try to worship Lolth. Even Drow who are good aligned(which are exceedingly rare mind you) don't just go off and worship the Seldarine. And most of them just end up dead anyway.

To add on top of this, this "high elf" character wants to become "Matriarch" of a Lolthite house. She'd never be accepted by Lolth or even actual Drow themselves. This part I can gloss over a bit, since it's a personal ambition that is built on the foundation laid out above - but it's so strange lorewise. Elves just don't do this.

Elven prisoners who get captured by Lolthites just end up being sacrificed - not followers of Lolth, a goddess who hates everything elves represent.

The writers of this character definitely crossed a line that should not be crossed - and it makes me wonder if they really know what they're doing with the writing.
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Showing 1-12 of 12 comments
aardvarkpepper Aug 6, 2023 @ 3:49pm 
Who's defined Lolth for whatever years? R.A. Salvatore. And what's that cute hint he likes to drop every now and then? That Lolth LOVES Drizz't Do'Urden, because he shows up and things get all weird, people die, and general chaos. Like yeah he's on the other team BUT kinda NOT the other team because he's doing exactly what a representative of Lolth is supposed to do, and I mean exactly. And Lolth is like, yeah, gimme more chaos baby!

Lolth is not just evil. She's that chaos aspect too.

Suppose you have an elf that decides yeah they really aren't down with Corellon Larethian or whatever. Hm? How are you going to make a stronger statement to say I'm done with Corellon than to say okay I'm going to go with Lolth? And Lolth? Yeah okay she's all drow-centric, but she'd also think it hilarious a high elf was sworn to her service. Like yeah, do that rebellion you high elf, ha ha! Hilarious! (to Lolth). So is Lolth really going to say "nah, like, you're a high elf, and I totally care about high elves and mortals and their ambitions and I think to set an example as evil god others will respect I should reject your worship" OR will Lolth be like "Spit in your eye Corellon, one of your children finds you so disgusting they serve me! Hahahaha! Yeah I'll make her a matron mother, why not? What do I care about stupid petty mortal intrigues when I can spit in your (a god's) eye?"

And if you're like oh nah, Lolth is totally like this self-centered evil nasty, then what about K'yorl Odran? Not like SHE was really the religious type, but she was matriarch of the third house for how long? And is that because she somehow beat Lolth and put her in her place or because Lolth allowed it? Yeah. And this is referenced time and again, Lolth does things just to do things, that's the history.

Now you take Drizz't. Oh yeah, it's not like HE just up and worshiped the Seldarine? Again, it's because it's NOT about monolithic good vs monolithic evil. It's about how characters have their own motivations, and how those play out. Well, there Drizz't was, drinking the Lolth kool-aid for how many years, then boop, realizes what he's been told is lies. He doesn't go and worship Corellon, because he doesn't know what Corellon really is, no practical experience. Doesn't that make sense? Like, maybe Corellon is just as disgusting as Lolth, for all Drizz't knows, and Lolth just says bad things about him because she just doesn't like him, which would be EXACTLY like it was for surface elves. So of course Drizz't goes on his journey of self-discovery and ends up with Mielekki or whatever because I dunno, reasons. Don't really recall him casting Entangle or these other ranger spells in the books but whatever. Ranger, sure.

What I'm getting at is sure, yeah, ALL orcs worship Gru'mmsh, ALL elves worship Corellon, ALL halflings worship Yondalla, except the ones that don't. And if you prefer NPCs to never have controversial opinions and to all play out stereotypically, well, you gotta figure, sometimes just as in real life things should play out a little complicated. So then you get these Satan worshippers or such.
Reiklandraider Aug 6, 2023 @ 3:50pm 
also, a drow cleric would love to brainwash a elf into worshipping lolth, the irony is simply too sweet to not taste
女王 [Queen] Aug 6, 2023 @ 3:53pm 
Oh look, another 'flaw' of the game that is based in pointless scrutiny... Out of all the things to notice, why did you hard focus on this? Are you having that little fun? Could YOU really write it better?
A.J Aug 6, 2023 @ 3:59pm 
Originally posted by aardvarkpepper:
Who's defined Lolth for whatever years? R.A. Salvatore. And what's that cute hint he likes to drop every now and then? That Lolth LOVES Drizz't Do'Urden, because he shows up and things get all weird, people die, and general chaos. Like yeah he's on the other team BUT kinda NOT the other team because he's doing exactly what a representative of Lolth is supposed to do, and I mean exactly. And Lolth is like, yeah, gimme more chaos baby!

Lolth is not just evil. She's that chaos aspect too.

Suppose you have an elf that decides yeah they really aren't down with Corellon Larethian or whatever. Hm? How are you going to make a stronger statement to say I'm done with Corellon than to say okay I'm going to go with Lolth? And Lolth? Yeah okay she's all drow-centric, but she'd also think it hilarious a high elf was sworn to her service. Like yeah, do that rebellion you high elf, ha ha! Hilarious! (to Lolth). So is Lolth really going to say "nah, like, you're a high elf, and I totally care about high elves and mortals and their ambitions and I think to set an example as evil god others will respect I should reject your worship" OR will Lolth be like "Spit in your eye Corellon, one of your children finds you so disgusting they serve me! Hahahaha! Yeah I'll make her a matron mother, why not? What do I care about stupid petty mortal intrigues when I can spit in your (a god's) eye?"

And if you're like oh nah, Lolth is totally like this self-centered evil nasty, then what about K'yorl Odran? Not like SHE was really the religious type, but she was matriarch of the third house for how long? And is that because she somehow beat Lolth and put her in her place or because Lolth allowed it? Yeah. And this is referenced time and again, Lolth does things just to do things, that's the history.

Now you take Drizz't. Oh yeah, it's not like HE just up and worshiped the Seldarine? Again, it's because it's NOT about monolithic good vs monolithic evil. It's about how characters have their own motivations, and how those play out. Well, there Drizz't was, drinking the Lolth kool-aid for how many years, then boop, realizes what he's been told is lies. He doesn't go and worship Corellon, because he doesn't know what Corellon really is, no practical experience. Doesn't that make sense? Like, maybe Corellon is just as disgusting as Lolth, for all Drizz't knows, and Lolth just says bad things about him because she just doesn't like him, which would be EXACTLY like it was for surface elves. So of course Drizz't goes on his journey of self-discovery and ends up with Mielekki or whatever because I dunno, reasons. Don't really recall him casting Entangle or these other ranger spells in the books but whatever. Ranger, sure.

What I'm getting at is sure, yeah, ALL orcs worship Gru'mmsh, ALL elves worship Corellon, ALL halflings worship Yondalla, except the ones that don't. And if you prefer NPCs to never have controversial opinions and to all play out stereotypically, well, you gotta figure, sometimes just as in real life things should play out a little complicated. So then you get these Satan worshippers or such.

To be clear, there are evil elves, but they're also rare. Elves tend to be good, Drow tend to be evil - and those that are rare (good Drow, evil Elves) don't go over to the other's camp.

No Drow will accept and elf and no elf will accept a Drow.

This "Lolthite" house with an elf as the Matriarch is just a laughable concept.
A.J Aug 6, 2023 @ 4:03pm 
Originally posted by .chr:
Oh look, another 'flaw' of the game that is based in pointless scrutiny... Out of all the things to notice, why did you hard focus on this? Are you having that little fun? Could YOU really write it better?

If you have no idea or interest about lore, why even bother responding? This is Dungeons and Dragons and some of us have played for 20+ years unlike your zoomer ass.

And yes I definitely could. The character wouldn't exist period.

Your entire post is literally "I can't win on the factual side, so I'm just going to go with adhoms".

So why don't you go ahead and explain the bond between Lolth and an Elf?
Maligner Aug 6, 2023 @ 4:10pm 
Lloth came before Salvatore. I believe Dieties & Demigods in AD&D. Chaotic Evil from the start. Assassins in employ. No good in her power structure.
DracoMint Aug 6, 2023 @ 4:15pm 
Originally posted by A.J:
To be clear, there are evil elves, but they're also rare. Elves tend to be good, Drow tend to be evil - and those that are rare (good Drow, evil Elves) don't go over to the other's camp.

No Drow will accept and elf and no elf will accept a Drow.

This "Lolthite" house with an elf as the Matriarch is just a laughable concept.

Drows are evil and elves are good is not exactly how it works, no race is evil by default (at least not anymore.) Drow society where the wast majority of drow grew up in is pretty messed up so most obviously ends up being evil as a result of that. Elves can turn out any possible way just like humans does, their societies are more varied and so many of them lives among other races.

In a believable story or game or whatever, it doesn't really work to view it like a race is a certain way, the best way to view it is that it's stereotypes that comes from some truths but a stereotype is not always accurate for everybody.

Like it was pointed out in another comment here Lolth does hate elves, but she loves chaos and what bigger insult to elves would there be than an elf brainwashed or misguided enough to worship her? She would probably find it hilarious.
Originally posted by A.J:
Originally posted by .chr:
Oh look, another 'flaw' of the game that is based in pointless scrutiny... Out of all the things to notice, why did you hard focus on this? Are you having that little fun? Could YOU really write it better?

If you have no idea or interest about lore, why even bother responding? This is Dungeons and Dragons and some of us have played for 20+ years unlike your zoomer ass.

And yes I definitely could. The character wouldn't exist period.

Your entire post is literally "I can't win on the factual side, so I'm just going to go with adhoms".

So why don't you go ahead and explain the bond between Lolth and an Elf?
Bro, you have no interest in the Lore. Have you read any of the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ books for Forgotten Realms? Scratch that, have you met people, irl, ever? Art imitates life and life is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crazy and full of contradiction
teksuo Aug 6, 2023 @ 5:23pm 
i could respec shadowheart to light domain even if she's a Shar worshipper. game didnt whine about it at all.

anything goes lol
Last edited by teksuo; Aug 6, 2023 @ 5:24pm
女王 [Queen] Aug 6, 2023 @ 6:32pm 
Originally posted by A.J:
Originally posted by .chr:
Oh look, another 'flaw' of the game that is based in pointless scrutiny... Out of all the things to notice, why did you hard focus on this? Are you having that little fun? Could YOU really write it better?

If you have no idea or interest about lore, why even bother responding? This is Dungeons and Dragons and some of us have played for 20+ years unlike your zoomer ass.

And yes I definitely could. The character wouldn't exist period.

Your entire post is literally "I can't win on the factual side, so I'm just going to go with adhoms".

So why don't you go ahead and explain the bond between Lolth and an Elf?
'zoomer ass'
I am pretty sure I'm older than you hun...
Anyways, what part of my post says I've no interest in the lore? I've been playing mike pondsmith's cyberpunk and 3.5E for years, and I can say who gives a rat's bum about the lore to THAT degree? As stated, people are full of contradictions irl, and thus such characters are not impossible just unlikely. Not to mention, such a character could easily exist in any player's campaign as well- Cuz realistically, no one cares about the lore to THAT degree, most people aim to have this thing- A special thing that is a foreign concept to you: Fun
KojiCadenceLyriel Apr 20, 2024 @ 7:26am 
There have been instances in Novel and gaming Canon where surface elves fell into step with lolth.

Kymil Nimesin was a gold elf lord of an ancient house and his methods drew the attention and approval of Lolth. He even helped Drow attack evermeet from below while his gold elf alliance attacked it from above.

Lolth not only assisted Kymil openly, but she noted his ability to plan this attack to overthrow the silver elf monarchy over 600 years showing patience was something she hoped could rub off on her usually impatient Drow, who don't usually plan that far ahead
KojiCadenceLyriel Apr 20, 2024 @ 7:40am 
Originally posted by A.J:
Originally posted by .chr:
Oh look, another 'flaw' of the game that is based in pointless scrutiny... Out of all the things to notice, why did you hard focus on this? Are you having that little fun? Could YOU really write it better?

If you have no idea or interest about lore, why even bother responding? This is Dungeons and Dragons and some of us have played for 20+ years unlike your zoomer ass.

And yes I definitely could. The character wouldn't exist period.

Your entire post is literally "I can't win on the factual side, so I'm just going to go with adhoms".

So why don't you go ahead and explain the bond between Lolth and an Elf?
Define "good"

There are a lot of evil elves who think they are good aligned. Gold elves in particular, a huge chunk of them are notoriously racist believing In their superiority over all other races of elves, and will often do things to further their politics over saving lives of "lesser" elvish races

For that matter some of the politicking of Silver elves give them a run for their money.

Some Green elves are often so insular and secretive they will protect their forest by any means necessary. If a couple of human 6 year old children snuck away from their parents and into a forest, the green elves who got wind of them would steer a monster or 3 in their direction to kill them, thinking "the humans will find their bodies and steer clear of our woods this way". The only reason they don't arrow the human kids in the throat themselves is because then the humans may see it was elven work and come in a larger group for revenge. It's not "evil" to them, it's insular clannish thinking and in line even with their gods. Elvish gods typically won't give a crap about humans and lump them in with orcs.

In short, elves can be called a "good" race about as much as humans can be called a good race.
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Date Posted: Aug 6, 2023 @ 3:30pm
Posts: 12