What makes casters "stronger" late-game?

[Snobby Hobo]

I'm actually struggling to justify Gale as a team member. Supposedly he's stronger as the game progresses, but when does that happen exactly? And how?

I've got a monk, barbarian, cleric and caster. They are level 7. DPS wise the monk and barbarian are about as strong, and both of them have insane mobility, they're also about as tanky as one another. I suspect the monk will outscale the barbarian slightly as they reach max level. Shadowheart has a clear purpose with her pretty insane spell kit.

Then there's Gale, who can teleport his 2 hp ass to the other side of the map and then hit something with a fiery piss stream dealing about a third of the damage my frontliners deal. The only reason he generates proper value is by hastening something else, but that requires a level 3 slot.

The only true advantage I can see is providing a lot of crowd control, but I find the game to become easier as it progresses so I doubt that will serve me much longer either. What am I missing here?

[Avisto™]

Yeahhhh not gonna lie, casters feel like they're only here for the utility. I played a Warlock for like 6 hours and decided to re-roll. As soon as I got Karlach, I was like WOW melee hit way harder. And playing a fighter, I can tell you it REALLY feels like they are just a lot stronger. Full agree. Mages need more damage honestly. So personally I feel like you're not missing anything :P

[把光荣属于俄罗斯]

same. 90% of time my 2h pal/2h laizael get the job done. i keep him mainly for special case scenario.....that never happens lol. You kinda should have a wizard in party but its kind annoying that for him to become remotely usseful you need to use long rest after every fight.

[zero]

its the good old "linear martial, exponential caster"

the moment you get higher level spells you can a huge burst in power, every new tier of spells brings both raw power and amazing CC potential with it.

fireball does 8d6(or half) in a 20 foot 20 foot radius, and has no limit on the maximum number of people you can target.

small room with a lot of enemies? you easily won mvp for most damage that fight.

hold person/creature? basically can end a fight before it begins.

haste is a king of a buff, even as it is in 5e.

[Phero]

**** Gale, dude eats all my stuff

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by zero:

its the good old "linear martial, exponential caster"

the moment you get higher level spells you can a huge burst in power, every new tier of spells brings both raw power and amazing CC potential with it.

fireball does 8d6(or half) in a 20 foot 20 foot radius, and has no limit on the maximum number of people you can target.

small room with a lot of enemies? you easily won mvp for most damage that fight.

hold person/creature? basically can end a fight before it begins.

hate is a king of a buff, even as it is in 5e.

True, but when it comes to AoE like the fireball I struggle to get much value out of it for several reasons. Firstly the game tends to throw big scary things at you with some minor turds doing irrelevant things on the side. So it feels like raw single target dps is favorable over big value but rather situational damage. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

[Sir_Therim -TPF-]

I'm expecting it to be the case that when you get to level 9, the spellcasters will always out dps their non-spell casting counterparts, with only a rare circumstance proving otherwise. in TableTop DND 5e, the only way the non-spellcasters can keep up is with magical equipment. If all your melee/archer characters have +1 equipment at level 5, and then +2 equipment at 9, there should not be too notable a difference.

However early on, the spellcasters should have it real rough as its easy to shut them down before they get spun up.

It may be the case that with the free - respec of characters, go full fighter or barbarian until you hit the big level milestones and swap yourself out.

[zero]

Originally posted by Snobby Hobo:

Originally posted by zero:

its the good old "linear martial, exponential caster"

the moment you get higher level spells you can a huge burst in power, every new tier of spells brings both raw power and amazing CC potential with it.

fireball does 8d6(or half) in a 20 foot 20 foot radius, and has no limit on the maximum number of people you can target.

small room with a lot of enemies? you easily won mvp for most damage that fight.

hold person/creature? basically can end a fight before it begins.

hate is a king of a buff, even as it is in 5e.

True, but when it comes to AoE like the fireball I struggle to get much value out of it for several reasons. Firstly the game tends to throw big scary things at you with some minor turds doing irrelevant things on the side. So it feels like raw single target dps is favorable over big value but rather situational damage. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

to be fair, i personally find blaster mage always comes second to heavy CC mage, i was just providing an example that is just blatant numbers rather then theoretical CC examples.

fireball is niche, ti is great for aoe, but its not the end all be all, its just a staple wizard spell that people use as an example for power spikes.

in the end D&D is a game in which killing faster=more resources(hp) saved, so having a person who can just pick a target(s) and nuke them instantly goes a long way, which depending on your casters is a choice

martials are consistent and dont need to worry about a lot besides "stand and hit", they are safe damage, but they have very little in terms of utility to hold enemies off or just outright kill one.

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by Sir_Therim -TPF-:

I'm expecting it to be the case that when you get to level 9, the spellcasters will always out dps their non-spell casting counterparts, with only a rare circumstance proving otherwise. in TableTop DND 5e, the only way the non-spellcasters can keep up is with magical equipment. If all your melee/archer characters have +1 equipment at level 5, and then +2 equipment at 9, there should not be too notable a difference.

However early on, the spellcasters should have it real rough as its easy to shut them down before they get spun up.

It may be the case that with the free - respec of characters, go full fighter or barbarian until you hit the big level milestones and swap yourself out.

Is this true? And if so how?

For example my monk has two actions per default. So spending some Ki I can start with 2 +3d6, and a buff for 1d6 on every following strike. You can chain this in another attack potentially spending Ki and you'd have 2+4d6 + 2d6 on the remaining attack. You then double strike 4 + 2d6 + 4d6.

That's 8 + 14d6 in ONE turn for 3 Ki. How in the world is a spellcaster going to outscale that?

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by zero:

Originally posted by Snobby Hobo:

True, but when it comes to AoE like the fireball I struggle to get much value out of it for several reasons. Firstly the game tends to throw big scary things at you with some minor turds doing irrelevant things on the side. So it feels like raw single target dps is favorable over big value but rather situational damage. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

to be fair, i personally find blaster mage always comes second to heavy CC mage, i was just providing an example that is just blatant numbers rather then theoretical CC examples.

fireball is niche, ti is great for aoe, but its not the end all be all, its just a staple wizard spell that people use as an example for power spikes.

in the end D&D is a game in which killing faster=more resources(hp) saved, so having a person who can just pick a target(s) and nuke them instantly goes a long way, which depending on your casters is a choice

martials are consistent and dont need to worry about a lot besides "stand and hit", they are safe damage, but they have very little in terms of utility to hold enemies off or just outright kill one.

I get your point, I'm merely trying to argue pro and against here. And applying it specifically to this game of course.

[zero]

Originally posted by Snobby Hobo:

Originally posted by zero:

to be fair, i personally find blaster mage always comes second to heavy CC mage, i was just providing an example that is just blatant numbers rather then theoretical CC examples.

fireball is niche, ti is great for aoe, but its not the end all be all, its just a staple wizard spell that people use as an example for power spikes.

in the end D&D is a game in which killing faster=more resources(hp) saved, so having a person who can just pick a target(s) and nuke them instantly goes a long way, which depending on your casters is a choice

martials are consistent and dont need to worry about a lot besides "stand and hit", they are safe damage, but they have very little in terms of utility to hold enemies off or just outright kill one.

I get your point, I'm merely trying to argue pro and against here. And applying it specifically to this game of course.

i mean, its a 4 man game, you should round yourself off, frontliner, skill monkey, wizard and some sorta faith caster covers all your basis and gives you a tool for every occasion.

i wouldn't pass up on an arcane caster if you have the choice in D&D, especially when enemies start getting resistances/weaknesses

[Snobby Hobo]

Originally posted by zero:

Originally posted by Snobby Hobo:

I get your point, I'm merely trying to argue pro and against here. And applying it specifically to this game of course.

i mean, its a 4 man game, you should round yourself off, frontliner, skill monkey, wizard and some sorta faith caster covers all your basis and gives you a tool for every occasion.

i wouldn't pass up on an arcane caster if you have the choice in D&D, especially when enemies start getting resistances/weaknesses

Yea, the versatility argument is quite solid.

The issue is that I keep hearing the sentiment of "no no, they'll eventually not be complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥" but it's not happening so far. It's still the monk and barbarian carrying every fight with Shadowheart cheering them on and Gale hiding on the bush on some small piece of geometry 10 miles away.

[zero]

Originally posted by Snobby Hobo:

Originally posted by zero:

i mean, its a 4 man game, you should round yourself off, frontliner, skill monkey, wizard and some sorta faith caster covers all your basis and gives you a tool for every occasion.

i wouldn't pass up on an arcane caster if you have the choice in D&D, especially when enemies start getting resistances/weaknesses

Yea, the versatility argument is quite solid.

The issue is that I keep hearing the sentiment of "no no, they'll eventually not be complete ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥" but it's not happening so far. It's still the monk and barbarian carrying every fight with Shadowheart cheering them on and Gale hiding on the bush on some small piece of geometry 10 miles away.

cant say the same here, between my warlock constantly knocking people into corners/off of things with eld blast and my wizard just sorching ray either 3 targets to death or just a single big target, my frontliners are just there to keep the enemies away and dish out a little damage, though rogues are nothing to scoff at damage wise, but i mostly keep em for the skill monkey thing.

[Pan Darius Cassandra]

Personally, I think you have to build control to really see the power of a spell caster.

[Game_is_Hard]

Wizards are all the same in these games no matter what. While you are trying to get higher tier spells and metamagic you cast, grease/sleep/color spray and buff your fighters. The enemy always rolls the saves on the none cantrip rays or beams or touch attacks in the beggining.

[Ironstar]

Welcome to 5e where CHA rules and INT drools.

Short answer; Wizards are gimps that don't come online until after about level 10 (and by then the adventure may very well be over).

Long answer: CHA casters are far superior. IDK if you're allowed to multiclass, but if you want to be an offensive caster, be a sorlock (warlock 2/sorcerer x). This combo comes online almost immediately. Absent that be a warlock; warlocks are the real "battlemages" of 5e. Don't want to sell your soul? Be a cleric instead, with the right domain you can cast offensively and when you run out of slots, you can still shoot or bash.

In 5e, wizards are utility/control/buffbots first and foremost. In a tabletop game they may still shine (depending on the DM). In a combat-focused video game, literally EVERY OTHER PICK is better than wizard. The only reason to pick wizard for player class is a self-limiting RP choice.