Casters are much weaker than martial classes

[Fast]

Im playing tactician and wanted to give 3 casters a try vs 3 martials and there is no contest whatsoever...martial are king.
Its nice to have a sorc or wiz for utility but warlock is garbage and honestly you could just run 3 martials + Cleric/Bard and have the easiest time of your life

[TaKo]

Origineel geplaatst door Indure:

but since martials are awful without GWM or sharpshooter and have a -5 to hit, EB is probably more reliable.

it's not really hard to get advantage and essentially negate GWM/Sharpshooter's penalty, specially if one gets archery fighting style for Sharpshooter or if you make use of bless, which you should

dual hand crossbows is very silly ranged DPR if you build it right for example

anyways, casters are indeed often weaker on an average DPR basis and have more resources to manage compared to martials, cause they have other tools to compesate for it, they can disable and/or debuff enemies(either individually or groups even) so as to make it easier for their martial party members to clean up shop, they can heal allies, they can buff allies, they can blast areas, do area denial, and of course the tons of out-of-combat utility(guidance, friends, bardic inspiration, speak with dead, speak with animals, teleports, etc) and of course, summons and i consider summon DPR to be part of a caster's dmg output

but despite all that casters can still output a lot of dmg, they are just limited by their spell slots, i.e an evoker can just use sunbeam or chain lightning to wreck shop, or any wizard really can just toss enemies into chasms with telekinesis every turn without worrying about shove positioning, clerics can get things like guardian angel and blade barrier too, bards can get some strong spells too, sorcerers are of course great blasters and warlocks while not the best casters can still use the best dmg cantrip and use it better than others thanks to invocations

[Frostfeather]

Origineel geplaatst door Martyrofsand:

Origineel geplaatst door Fast:

have your cleric hold person on them all, perma crits.

Hold person, that spell that has a save you where just stating makes casters weak compared to martials? Funny how that suddenly becomes a non-issue if it supports you.

I already covered this pages ago, but you can tell op is only here to say "fite me".

[ptirodaktill]

Origineel geplaatst door night4:

Single target CC with Concentration usually isn't great for bosses, no, but it's not always "useless" either. The more effort you put into it, the better results you'll see, but you can't really expect bosses to be so easy to CC. And defensive buffs are usually to get the AI to not attack you and prefer another target instead. Which is to be expected and also fine because the spell is keeping you alive either way.

Generally speaking, in a more "balanced" group, it will be easier to do single target damage with martials, but I don't see how that's an issue. Most groups will have both martials/casters and they'll work together well.

So, why do you expect casters to do what your martials are in single target damage when you don't expect martials to do the variety of things your casters bring to the group? It doesn't make sense.

It is useless. With haste on barb or pally or monk kill at least 1 critter per round. Concentration check disable either haste or greater invisibility or bless. It just not a good trade. If a single critter has left, monk can just stunlock it, no point to cast CC spells.
I have found a bugged staff that allow me to cast any spell for free, w/o using spell slot as much as i want. Guess what spell i use? Chain lightning 100% of times. And even with unlimited casts i wouldn`t call it too strong.

[moysha]

casters are not weak, with right equipment and feats my sorc burns 30+ dmg with a simple firebolt. If you quicken, you can hurl two fireballs, and upcasting is fantastic. I downed a 250+ hp boss with upcast quickened scorching ray in a single turn.

[Vyadhi]

Casters are amazing. Pick spells like sleep, create/destroy water and chromatic orb early on.

[Martyrofsand]

Origineel geplaatst door Fast:

but even if u dont use that, you get advanatage with vow of emnity, paladins also get hold person, but i prefer to use bless on my pally and use shadowheart my 1 cleric 9 bard to control enemies, and karlach my sorc is there to press twinned spell for haste on my barb and pally, then everything go ded.

So now we have gone from "martials are better" to "this one specific subclass of one specific class." Never seen a goal post move so much.

Fun fact you can use your martials to knock enemies prone and give your casters advantage. This doesn't make casters broken anymore than casters buffing martials make them broken. It makes them a team working together and you can design your team how you wish to achieve the same results and in many cases they all work just the same.

[Frostfeather]

Origineel geplaatst door ptirodaktill:

It is useless. With haste on barb or pally or monk kill at least 1 critter per round. Concentration check disable either haste or greater invisibility or bless. It just not a good trade. If a single critter has left, monk can just stunlock it, no point to cast CC spells.
I have found a bugged staff that allow me to cast any spell for free, w/o using spell slot as much as i want. Guess what spell i use? Chain lightning 100% of times. And even with unlimited casts i wouldn`t call it too strong.

You didn't answer my question, lol.

Origineel geplaatst door night4:

So, why do you expect casters to do what your martials are in single target damage when you don't expect martials to do the variety of things your casters bring to the group?

Also, as mentioned earlier here, you're using a strategy to buff martials and rely on martials (at least for single target damage). You need to hold your caster responsible for part of the damage the martials are dealing in that case. And you need to change your strategy if you want casters to do more damage directly.

I suspect part of the issue is 1 - BG3 combat is too easy regardless of group composition and 2 - you might be used to Pathfinder.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

Origineel geplaatst door Fast:

Im playing tactician and wanted to give 3 casters a try vs 3 martials and there is no contest whatsoever...martial are king.
Its nice to have a sorc or wiz for utility but warlock is garbage and honestly you could just run 3 martials + Cleric/Bard and have the easiest time of your life

This has always been the case in D&D video games.

Let me tell you a story about a D&D game i played.
Picture this.
I am a druid.
My group needs to cross a river.
I summoned octopuses to carry us accross the river as we didnt have time to waste on a long rest.
Or that time i had summoned two eagle's to carry away gaurds from our murder hobo party.
Or that time i summoned 7 1 hp 10 ac monsters to create a wall of summons the enemy coudnt pass wasting there turn.
Or that time i caused our enemies to sleep giving us a free win.

Video games will never allow for creative use of magic.
There to combat focused.
In 90% of the D&D games i played we have 1 combat per long rest.
And if we had multiple it was mostly weaker enemies that didnt require much to kill.
Video games however has this silly idea that every fight shoud be the most lethal.

Reminds me of neverwinter nights 2.
One of the early fight was against drunkards.
Not even a threat.
Later against some corrupt solders.
It is kinda dispointing everything seems to have to be the biggest threat in the world.
Dragon age 2 had many flaws but i can relate more to a protect my family story then saving the world of jerks that doesnt deserve it.

Sorry for the rant.
In short:
Fighters are good at fighting the many trash fights games love to use.
Wizards are good against bosses or large group of weak enemies.

As i was once tought.
The thing about wizards isnt the damage the do.
It is that they can force you to take damage regardless of your ac.

Here is a little thing.
A single fireball does crap damage.
Not worth a spellslot.
But it does that damage over an entire area.
Multiple people get hit.
The damage they get can be halfed but not avoided(unless your a rogue with evasion, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ rogue's)
Likewise dimension door is free long range travel.
On the table top we also gets spells like scrying and leomuds tiny hut.

In baldurs gate 2 we had a scrying spell.
Not a single other D&D game seem to add it.
Or using gas form to move through a door lock.
Or cast lighting storm then change into a squiral hiding in a tree.

There are many things magic can do when not limited to video games.
Something as simple as flying.
Solasta allowed us to accauly fly.
Not use it as a long range jump.

In short.
Video games are by the very nature limited.
Imagination is not limited.

[Ancient Toaster]

Origineel geplaatst door Fast:

Im playing tactician and wanted to give 3 casters a try vs 3 martials and there is no contest whatsoever...martial are king.
Its nice to have a sorc or wiz for utility but warlock is garbage and honestly you could just run 3 martials + Cleric/Bard and have the easiest time of your life

Martials we’re always good at lower levels. This has been a thing since D&D first edition.

Wizards and Sorcerors become gods and far eclipse any Martial character as levels get higher. Again, this has literally always been the thing.

A level 20 Wizard in 5th would destroy a Level 20 Fighter in one round

[Cacomistle]

Origineel geplaatst door Your Father:

What's different from 5e DND?

I think all the magic items that buff martials is the primary difference. They also added some damage to monks.

Like compared to 5e with no special buffs, my monk has +1 damage with unarmed attacks (might have been 1d4, can't remember exactly), their weapon has a 1d4 lightning damage, and then monk in general got something at level 6 that increases their damage by 1d4+wis mod. So, compared to a standard 5e monk with no magic items, I'm doing on average 5.5 damage per hit plus 2.5 damage on the 2 weapon hits and 1 damage on the 2 unarmed hits. With 4 hits, that's on average a total of 29 extra damage per turn.

Considering a normal monk would just hit for 4*1d8+4 with flurry of blows for 34 damage on average, I am nearly doubling my damage with modifiers. Oh and I don't even have the best items, like for example its quite easy to get +1 greatswords with 1d4 psychic damage added but the quarterstaff my monk has isn't +1.

To be fair there's some decent stuff for casters too. In the slot that was giving +1 unarmed damage, my bard has +1ac and an extra bardic die. Which is nice, they've got 20 ac and can use defensive flourish for more.

But, wyll for instance does not feel very strong. I'm sure I could build him better (I'm not building characters to be optimal personally, I'm building stuff I have fun with), but I haven't really seen anything that could buff his damage up to the levels of my monk aside from using fireball in aoe fights.

I think haste is also really strong, but I haven't been using it. Don't have someone who can cast it in my party, and I don't really like the concept of 1 character doing all the damage so I have no plans to change that.

[❤Waffle6❤]

It does not catch up. Spell does not scale. Whoever telling you it catches up has never played a caster before. Yes at level 5 you will feel good for a level( primary because level 3 spell is really good. But you will see Martial classes getting multiple action is just insane. Caster in this game especially wizard needs a huge buff. They are toolbox if you think that is good.

[Squint]

my wizard can solo lots of encounters

[Fast]

Origineel geplaatst door ❤Waffle6❤:

It does not catch up. Spell does not scale. Whoever telling you it catches up has never played a caster before. Yes at level 5 you will feel good for a level( primary because level 3 spell is really good. But you will see Martial classes getting multiple action is just insane. Caster in this game especially wizard needs a huge buff. They are toolbox if you think that is good.

The distinction i found is people playing on tactician vs the other difficulties.
People on other difficulties can play anything and it scales fine, you can manage 28 spell DC on your casters which is going to exceed any ability scores of anything in the game in explorer or adventurer mode and provide you with a 100% or 95% chance of success, but in tactician, you will actually still get a significant chance to miss control spells and damage spell and see saves much more frequently, making casters in tactician specifically weaker because you could instead buff your martial who will have a 95% or 100% chance to hit all the time regardless because AC doesnt scale the same way ability scores do in tactician and advantage is much easier to obtain on martials 100% of the time than it is casters.

[Frostfeather]

Origineel geplaatst door ❤Waffle6❤:

It does not catch up. Spell does not scale. Whoever telling you it catches up has never played a caster before. Yes at level 5 you will feel good for a level( primary because level 3 spell is really good. But you will see Martial classes getting multiple action is just insane. Caster in this game especially wizard needs a huge buff. They are toolbox if you think that is good.

The real issue is similar to the Dunning–Kruger effect: people who claim casters are "weak" or "bad" are using them poorly, then drawing faulty conclusions based on their own poor usage.

[Martyrofsand]

Origineel geplaatst door ❤Waffle6❤:

It does not catch up. Spell does not scale. Whoever telling you it catches up has never played a caster before. Yes at level 5 you will feel good for a level( primary because level 3 spell is really good. But you will see Martial classes getting multiple action is just insane. Caster in this game especially wizard needs a huge buff. They are toolbox if you think that is good.

Strange I'm playing multiple games on tactician and I'm finding either work great provided I play around it. My double barb party build is doing great with Gael/Shadowheart buffing them and sending them out.

Likewise my Lock/Mage AoE party does really well with my Tempest Cleric doorway dodging with Spirit Guardians while I AoE the adds and Asterion being a skill monkey/assassin for critical enemies.

People want to act like Martials have some ungodly advantage over casters from their parties specifically built to buff their martials and yeah you will in that case. Likewise if you build a party to take advantage of the AoE potential of casters and use terrain to funnel enemies into it guess what, you melt entire encounters much faster than martials do.