Barbarian Battlemaster

[GuiEstevan]

I'm going barbarian, but I liked the Battle Master's maneuvers. I'm considering multiclassing, how many levels should I invest in Fighter to have the maneuvers?

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by maniacal<1>:

Just honest question...did Larian release the leveling info on classes and I missed it, or is everyone theory-crafting on their multiclass while having no idea how classes are going to be structured per level?

The game is built on D&D 5e ruleset, and Larian has been sticking pretty close to the books for most part.

https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Index%3AClasses

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Respeccing every level to get the most of builds/ASI's is a degree of munchkinism even I am anxious to stoop down to. Doing this for every one of your party members would mean you're spending more time fiddling with level-ups than actually playing.

Slow clap. I feel seen. I'm already stressing out at the thought of just keeping the interface organized and current for all my party (even those I generally keep on the bench) each time I level. The thought of hypercrafting each character per level is bonkers to me.

- A

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Personally, coming from tabletop tradition, I think respec should be used very sparingly. I normally use it in CRPGs once per NPC companion to make them have efficient builds...

Yeah, I plan a one-time companion respec (pretty much all of my regular adventuring party people) as soon as respec is unlocked for some super simple tweaks.

Shad the Cleric with Perception --> Shad the Cleric who occasionally Thiefs. No major life change required.

Shad the Cleric as Life Domain --> Shad the Superhealing Cleric in Heavy Armor.

I'll similarly make little chiropractic adjustments to make sure Gale has all the INT skills covered or so and so doesn't have an odd CON or DEX value, etc.

You get the idea. Small, targeted, curated changes -- esp. ones that don't break the ID/vibe of the character.

- A

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by FunkyMonkey:

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

You can get Rage by dipping 1 level into Barb, and keep Fighter for the other 11 to get three attacks. You'll sacrifice a feat/ASI for that, but fighter already gets an extra one at 6, so you will still be able to get your primary stat to 20 and have 1-2 build-defining feats like GWM. Is +2 damage and resistance to physical for 10 turns twice per long rest worth a feat slot? Perhaps. Once you take your most important feat, the others are more situational, and Rage is more useful than most of them for sure.

Other than Rage, Barb's best ability is Frenzied Strike from Berserker which allows attacking with your bonus action. But If you're taking the Great Weapon Master feat, you will already be getting a bonus action attack quite often (on kill or crit), so it will overlap with Frenzied Strike, reducing the latter's value.

Are you overlooking Reckless attack? Advantage on all attacks you make seems pretty sweet for a Fighter to multiclass into and combined with damage resistance, giving up fighters third attack seems more like a question of preference than which one is better.

Getting advantage on attack is nice, but then enemies are far more likely to hit you as well. Reckless attack is kinda like GWM's -5 AB/+10 damage, it's a big tossup with regard to efficiency. At one point I ran calc on GWM, and turned out that the ability doesn't actually give you more damage vs. average enemies, despite costing a feat, because the decrease in chance to hit completely offsets the bonus damage. GWM only becomes a net positive in certain specific conditions, like when the enemy's AC is lower than average or you have situational advantage. Same with RA: if you're a melee-wielding Barb charging in the middle of a group of enemies, giving ALL these enemies advantage on their attacks against you can turn very ugly very fast (advantage also means twice as many crits btw, and gods help you if you have Karmic dice turned on). Maybe it's not as bad in CRPGs when you can just load a save, but in tabletop this is pretty risky to say the least.

So, even though RA is very cool on paper, in reality I wouldn't rate it higher than Rage and Frenzied Strike, both of which just give you great bonuses without taking away anything of import. You also only get RA on the second level of Barb, so getting it would rob you of the Fighter's third attack at 11, which is yet another ability that gives you a great bonus at no expense.

RA would have been better if advantage could stack, and you'd get double or triple advantage from e.g. RA, attacking from ambush, Vow of Enmity, etc. to make 90+% reliable hits with GWM that turn into autocrits with Assassin, killing all opposition before they even get a chance to strike. But since that is not the case, RA and GWM in my view take a back seat to Sharpshooter and Elven Accuracy (which is the only ability that gives advantage which actually stacks; not sure if it's in BG3 though).

[FunkyMonkey]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by FunkyMonkey:

Are you overlooking Reckless attack? Advantage on all attacks you make seems pretty sweet for a Fighter to multiclass into and combined with damage resistance, giving up fighters third attack seems more like a question of preference than which one is better.

Getting advantage on attack is nice, but then enemies are far more likely to hit you as well. Reckless attack is kinda like GWM's -5 AB/+10 damage, it's a big tossup with regard to efficiency. At one point I ran calc on GWM, and turned out that the ability doesn't actually give you more damage vs. average enemies, despite costing a feat, because the decrease in chance to hit completely offsets the bonus damage. GWM only becomes a net positive in certain specific conditions, like when the enemy's AC is lower than average or you have situational advantage. Same with RA: if you're a melee-wielding Barb charging in the middle of a group of enemies, giving ALL these enemies advantage on their attacks against you can turn very ugly very fast (advantage also means twice as many crits btw, and gods help you if you have Karmic dice turned on). Maybe it's not as bad in CRPGs when you can just load a save, but in tabletop this is pretty risky to say the least.

So, even though RA is very cool on paper, in reality I wouldn't rate it higher than Rage and Frenzied Strike, both of which just give you great bonuses without taking away anything of import. You also only get RA on the second level of Barb, so getting it would rob you of the Fighter's third attack at 11, which is yet another ability that gives you a great bonus at no expense.

RA would have been better if advantage could stack, and you'd get double or triple advantage from e.g. RA, attacking from ambush, Vow of Enmity, etc. to make 90+% reliable hits with GWM that turn into autocrits with Assassin, killing all opposition before they even get a chance to strike. But since that is not the case, RA and GWM in my view take a back seat to Sharpshooter and Elven Accuracy (which is the only ability that gives advantage which actually stacks; not sure if it's in BG3 though).

Good points. I will have to see in-game how it all shakes out, though. While giving advantage to all enemies is bad for your face, I agree, taking half damage helps a lot with that, combined with bigger barbarian HP.

[.Master Jiren, The Strongest]

Originally posted by GuiEstevan:

I'm also considering the fun factor and having a variety of options rather than having the most powerful character possible. I want to have the Barbarian interactions right from the beginning and be able to throw enemies, then invest in Battlemaster to have a wide range of attacks.

people are just obsessed with power gaming.
You said you were making a barbarian.
and you asked how many levels you should invest to get the martial maneuvers.
People werent really answering that question and instead just criticized the choice for power gaming reasons.

So heres what i'll say. You unlock Battlemaster at level 3, but you can also get more maneuvers and more superiority dice from fighting styles and feats. Granted, I dont know if the martial maneuver fighting style and feat will be in the game on launch, but if it is, you get a fighting style right off the bat as a first level fighter.

You should probably take Fighter to 4 that way you get:
Battlemaster
Martial Maneuver fighting style
Martial Adept feat at level 4

This gives you the most amount of superiority dice and the most amount of maneuvers to use.

8 levels into Barbarian gets you 2 more feats to do whatever you want with, probably great weapon master and something else. This gets you your 2nd barbarian feature as well as your fighter battlemaster subclass.

So I think doing 8 barbarian/4 fighter gets you what you want. Superiority dice, martial maneuvers, extra attack from barbarian, and focuses on Barbarian over Fighter which is what you wanted.

People can argue all day about whats the most meta game strategy ultimate power gamer min max move. But I think for what you specifically want this is your best bet.

taking fighter to 5 and 6 wont get you anything at all, so theres no reason at all to go above 4 as a fighter because you get all of that with your barbarian levels already.

As for which class you should start with, that is up to you, if you start as a Fighter and go to 3 or 4 to get your subclass you wont have extra atack until level 8 or 9. But what you could do is take Fighter to 5 and then start doing barbarian levels.

If you want to do barbarian first over fighter then you could take barbarian to 5 for extra attack then fighter to 3 and then 4. Your build would basically be complete by that point and its probably the best route for the character you're wanting to play (a barbarian battle master as opposed to a fighter barbarian)

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by ahsanford:

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Personally, coming from tabletop tradition, I think respec should be used very sparingly. I normally use it in CRPGs once per NPC companion to make them have efficient builds...

Yeah, I plan a one-time companion respec (pretty much all of my regular adventuring party people) as soon as respec is unlocked for some super simple tweaks.

Shad the Cleric with Perception --> Shad the Cleric who occasionally Thiefs. No major life change required.

Shad the Cleric as Life Domain --> Shad the Superhealing Cleric in Heavy Armor.

I'll similarly make little chiropractic adjustments to make sure Gale has all the INT skills covered or so and so doesn't have an odd CON or DEX value, etc.

You get the idea. Small, targeted, curated changes -- esp. ones that don't break the ID/vibe of the character.

- A

Shad as thief just doesn't cut it as she won't get expertise with Thieves' Tools and Hide, nor Hide as bonus action, nor an extra bonus action for Hide, nor the Assassin spec for autocrits from ambush.

As for Life domain, I've always found that damage outscales healing in 5e, so better kill enemies faster than give them more chances to damage you and then be forced to waste actions on heals. That's why I'm giving my Shad (♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that has a nice ring, full name Shadow Chad?) the War Domain:

• heavy armor
  
• martial weapons
  
• semi-Extra Attack (times Wisdom modifier)
  
• semi-Vow of Enmity (Channel Divinity for +10 to attack to herself or ally)
  
• semi-Smite (+1d8 damage on attacks)
  
• eventually, permanent Stoneskin (resistance to non-magical attacks)
  
  Slap Spirit Guardians on top of that and she becomes a whirlwind of death.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by FunkyMonkey:

Good points. I will have to see in-game how it all shakes out, though. While giving advantage to all enemies is bad for your face, I agree, taking half damage helps a lot with that, combined with bigger barbarian HP.

Yes, the game's specificities can certainly shake everything up, depending on how Larian implements various abilities, sets up fights etc. For instance, their "water gives vulnerability to electricity/cold" homebrew rule has demolished the magical damage status quo, making lightning builds very attractive vs. the more traditional fire builds. Or, the way enemy AI in BG3 EA seems to ignore attacks from stealth, making it possible to massacre groups of enemies without even entering proper battle.

[FunkyMonkey]

But I will agree that even a raging barbarian that is the only one getting hit, giving advantage to everyone, probably goes down a lot faster than one would think. Barbarians should have someone else to back them up in the frontline to really shine.

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Shad as thief just doesn't cut it as she won't get expertise with Thieves' Tools and Hide, nor Hide as bonus action, nor an extra bonus action for Hide, nor the Assassin spec for autocrits from ambush.

Sorry, I wasn't clear -- in this case, she'd 100% still be a cleric, but I'd give her the basics to serve only the finder / trap-manager / lockpicker / cat burglar aspect of what a Rogue does. No expertise with Sleight, no, but proficiency + guidance might be enough.

It's a hack move to eliminate the two biggest headaches of not having Astarion in the party: traps and locks.

So on top of being a solid healer, she'd also:

Finding stuff including traps: A
Dealing with Locks/Traps: B
Sneaking: B
Backstabbing / high melee dmg / assassinating: F

But again, it lets me not have to bring Astarion with, which I prefer.

- A

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by ahsanford:

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Shad as thief just doesn't cut it as she won't get expertise with Thieves' Tools and Hide, nor Hide as bonus action, nor an extra bonus action for Hide, nor the Assassin spec for autocrits from ambush.

Sorry, I wasn't clear -- in this case, she'd 100% still be a cleric, but I'd give her the basics to serve only the finder / trap-manager / lockpicker / cat burglar aspect of what a Rogue does. No expertise with Sleight, no, but proficiency + guidance might be enough.

It's a hack move to eliminate the two biggest headaches of not having Astarion in the party: traps and locks.

- A

Since she won't have Expertise, she'll never be as good as a Rogue in lockpicking/trapfinding. And remember that Guidance can be used on any character, so you can still cast it on the party rogue. I hate reloading just to pick a lock, so I plan on maxxing out thief skills in my party.

With respec you don't need Astarion and can make any character a party thief. With multiclassing, you don't need a level 12 rogue to have a good thief, any character with 1 or more levels in rogue to get expertise will do. My personal plan is to have one party member built as a fighter/assassin, focused on alpha striking, with good combat capability but also full expertise in rogue skills. Possibly a ranged build with sharpshooter (and elven accuracy if it's in).

Of course, you can multiclass a Trickery cleric with a Rogue, but I think that's just taking a weak domain and making it weaker by having less spellcasting levels. I'd rather have Shad as a full 12 Cleric, and if I have to multiclass her it will be either into an Arcane caster (to keep spellslot progression) or a Fighter (been thinking about a War Cleric 6/Battle Master 6 build).

[Super_]

You could just go full barbarian and take the feat that gives you battlemaster moves.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Super_:

You could just go full barbarian and take the feat that gives you battlemaster moves.

Martial Adept is really weak since it only gives you one superiority die (and IIRC it's a d6, not a d8). So only one maneuver per rest. If you're really going to spend a feat, then just go Fighter 3 and get four superiority dice (d8's) plus Action Surge, Second Wind and Fighting Style. Or go Fighter 4 and don't even lose a feat.

I don't think Barb 12 gives anything that's better than getting four levels of Fighter in a Barb 8/Fighter 4 build. Fighter 8/Barb 4 is even better as it gets you an extra ASI/feat and more superiority dice.

Another build I'd be looking at if I wanted to play a Barb would be Berserker 9/Assassin 3. Yes it loses one ASI, but the alpha strike gains with advantage on initiative rolls (Feral instinct), advantage on attacks (Assassin), automatic hit > crit (Assassin) and more damage dice on crits (Brutal Critical) would be great. Toss in Half Orc race for more damage on crits.

[ahsanford]

@blackdragon

Hear you on reloading for locks.

This is why I’m starting with one level of Rogue to get all the good skill/expertise stuff stuff and then spending the rest of my levels as a fighter.

It’s a weird fighter / skill monkey / talker build I have done before (with a whole lot 14/12 stats), but now the level one multi class opportunity with rogue just kind of supercharges the skill part of things.

I’m on a tangent, I’m just saying that the shadowheart rogue nod is better than not having a Rogue in your party, and you can’t beat the price to get it with shadowheart. You get an A healer and a B (outside of combat) rogue for the price of one character. That’s not a bad trade IMHO.

- A

[Clive Hawkins]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

With the 12 level cap, dipping even 1 level of another class will rob you of a feat/ASI, and dipping two or more levels will rob you of the third attack the Fighter gets at 11

None of that is true.


Fighter 8 / Barbarian 4

You lose Extra Extra Attack at Level 11 but Berserker gives you an Extra Attack as a Bonus Action. This also gives you Enraged Throw which is a long range Bonus Action that knocks an enemy prone (free Advantage.)

You still get the same number of Feats as a Fighter 12. Instead of getting them at 4, 6, 8, 12 you are getting them at 4, 6, 8 and 4. This let's you take your STR from 17-20, get Great Weapon Master, and still have a Feat left over.