Question for the max-min-ers out there

[ahsanford]

Let's say you are both a max-min-er / hyperscripted leveler and you wanted to play an Ironman / permadeath playthrough.

If you find out that respec is not possible in Ironman, yet you inherently love to tinker and optimize, which do you choose? Ironman or the ability to respec?

- A

[[Heretic]Rivga]

My mates who are more hard core games characters HATE Respec.

Essentially the whole idea is to be able to build a character that is strong from 1 to 12, "Any arse clown can build something that is strong at level 6 then another build at level 12" one was crying over voice chat last night.

So Iron man mode that does not have respec is their preferred choice.

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by HereticRivga:

My mates who are more hard core games characters HATE Respec.
...
So Iron man mode that does not have respec is their preferred choice.

^^^ I assume that ONLY works if they completely understand the rules Larian has implemented, right?

And as there is no in-game leveling up simulator, isn't there the risk a min-max-ers perfectly scripted plan can't be realized for some reason, thus pooping on a long and stressful ironman run?

For instance, I was watching the d4 guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4iw6MPxSDg

...and he made it sound like some builds could be killer but we don't know the fine print from Larian on some of it. Isn't that a huge risk for someone banking on something for an ironman run?

- A

[Foolswalkin]

Originally posted by HereticRivga:

My mates who are more hard core games characters HATE Respec.

Essentially the whole idea is to be able to build a character that is strong from 1 to 12, "Any arse clown can build something that is strong at level 6 then another build at level 12" one was crying over voice chat last night.

So Iron man mode that does not have respec is their preferred choice.

This is both true and ridiculous, because it assumes builds are there to demonstrate one’s system mastery rather than lead to an enjoyable gameplay experience throughout. 5e is not a great system to invest system mastery into, and BG3 is (wisely, IMO) making it easy to experiment without punishing the player.

In procedurally generated roguelikes, I do often feel like the gameplay is just a lab in which to test one’s build and ability to respond to unexpected situations. I don’t think that BG3’s fixed story will be meaningfully challenging to Ironman once you’ve played it a few times and you can research locations of key items via wiki. Tiresome, maybe, but not challenging.

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by Foolswalkin:

This is both true and ridiculous, because it assumes builds are there to demonstrate one’s system mastery rather than lead to an enjoyable gameplay experience throughout.

Bingo. Spot on.

- A

[Comuse]

how does one even min-max 5e? there aren't enough options to min-max

[[Heretic]Rivga]

Originally posted by Foolswalkin:

Originally posted by HereticRivga:

My mates who are more hard core games characters HATE Respec.

Essentially the whole idea is to be able to build a character that is strong from 1 to 12, "Any arse clown can build something that is strong at level 6 then another build at level 12" one was crying over voice chat last night.

So Iron man mode that does not have respec is their preferred choice.

This is both true and ridiculous, because it assumes builds are there to demonstrate one’s system mastery rather than lead to an enjoyable gameplay experience throughout. 5e is not a great system to invest system mastery into, and BG3 is (wisely, IMO) making it easy to experiment without punishing the player.

In procedurally generated roguelikes, I do often feel like the gameplay is just a lab in which to test one’s build and ability to respond to unexpected situations. I don’t think that BG3’s fixed story will be meaningfully challenging to Ironman once you’ve played it a few times and you can research locations of key items via wiki. Tiresome, maybe, but not challenging.

For the record, I'll probably respec.

The guys see the challenge as involving "mastery over the system" as someone else put it or living with you error.

They are after the table top experience, as another one of them put it.

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by HereticRivga:

They are after the table top experience, as another one of them put it.

BG3 players: I think I will take a quick dip in this other class at L3...

5e Tabletoppers: NOOOO, you are doing it wrong?! You've ruined everythi--

Swen: [places affordable respec button on table] I'm sorry, what's that you were saying? [Smiles like a fox.]

BG3 players: Ooh, thanks Swen, you're the best. I may use this, I may not, but it's nice to know that you support us turning 5e's unforgiving leveling ladder and turning it into our own personal monkey bars. Weeeee, BG3 is fun!

5e Tabletoppers: [Appalled] What is life. I'm going to ask Owlcat to make a game that is even harder to navigate and make them promise me in blood that respec will never ever be a thing.

:-P

- A

[Gaius]

Originally posted by ahsanford:

Let's say you are both a max-min-er / hyperscripted leveler and you wanted to play an Ironman / permadeath playthrough.

If you find out that respec is not possible in Ironman, yet you inherently love to tinker and optimize, which do you choose? Ironman or the ability to respec?

- A

The ability to respect, no doubt at all. MAYBE after months and multiple playthroughs I'd enjoy the challenge, but the itea of bricking a character instead of having fun up to the end sounds horrible.

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by Gaius:

The ability to respect, no doubt at all. MAYBE after months and multiple playthroughs I'd enjoy the challenge, but the itea of bricking a character instead of having fun up to the end sounds horrible.

Yep. I'd never effing Ironman a game like this, but if I had to -- no way on earth it would be my first playthrough.

I'd have a non-Ironman savegame at L12 from my first playthrough, and in THAT game I'd play around with respec as a draft of the 'permanent' changes I'd make in my Ironman playthrough.

- A