Cleric/Bard Optimization...

[Fast]

Ive never played this class in D&D even on table top.

And i was thinking it might be incredibly fun with how the game is set out.

But maybe someone can advise.

I will Start Level 1 Cleric and then multiclass into Lore Bard and go to level 12 as bard.

I was thinking Life cleric whilst u lose a single ASI, it allows you at level 6 bard to take 2 cleric spells (it should) instead of at level 10 with other bard subclasses, meaning you can take guardians and whatever else.
But importantly this lets you get guidance, wear heavy armour and shields, and disciple of life, bless etc you can then go into Bard, and benefit from a huge amount of proficiencies as well as all of bards incredible spells and class abilities.

This class will cover the dialogue,support,utility,,skill monkey and control options.

Meaning you can take whatever party members you like and not feel gimped.

If anyone knows some specific picks that are either necessary or should be considered greatly let me know.

[Blackdragon]

Originally posted by Farsha:

Still don’t think cleric/bard is good combo.
Too many spells will compete for concentration.
Bard can do much more fun things then to concentrate on bless.
Bard spell list is aleady great,you don’t need to take 1st lvl divine spells.

Just get Shadowheart, she’s a cleric that can unlock stuff, leave bless for her.

Bard is much better with Paladin if you want to smite. Warlock for blasting with eldrich blast or sorcerer for metamagic.
Cleric gives you nothing but few spells you don’t need or want to cast.

Dipping cleric gives Bard medium and heavy armor, martial weapons and shield profs, as well as offensive, defensive and utility cantrips and spells. This alone may be worth a dip, as it instantly transforms you into a powerful frontline warrior capable of healing and protecting himself and others. It also lets you keep your spellcasting slot progression, so even though you'll be one level behind in spells known, you will still have the same amount of slots as a full bard. But if you dip Tempest Cleric for two levels, you're also getting a free Maximise Spell available 3 or more times per day. Considering that even Sorcerers no longer have Maximise metamagic, that's a unique damage boost, which doesn't require any other resource except Channel Divinity.

Conversely, dipping Paladin will gimp your spell slot progressions (as half-casters only get half their level rounded down added to the multiclass spell slot table, so Paladin 1 gets nothing). And using your 3rd level spell slots to do an extra 4d8 damage to one target - provided you even hit - pales in comparison to doing 8d6 damage to all targets in a huge area with Fireball.

Dipping Warlock is even worse because it won't even get you armor profs, and Eldritch Blast without Agonising/Repelling Blast is just a regular cantrip. Meanwhile, again you're losing spell slot progression.

Dipping Sorcerer with Bard for metamagic is an interesting choice, assuming you go Bard first until level 6, when you get additional magical secrets for Fireball and Scorching Ray, and then go Sorcerer 3. That way you'll end up with Bard 9/Sorc 3, with access to 5th level spells and full spell slots for a 12th level spellcaster, two types of metamagic, and a mix of Bard and Sorc abilities. It's not too bad, but compare to what you're losing out compared to just going straight Sorc: a considerable bonus to damage from Draconic Bloodline, more sorcery points, many more various spells, and most importantly access to 6th level spells like Chain Lightning (which combined with Wet condition will wreck in this game). You're losing that, in exchange for what? Light armor, a rapier and a few inspiration dice? The exchange isn't worth it in my view. If damage is your priority, go full Sorc or Tempest/Sorc.

Why of all these options I think Tempest/Bard is the best - because it's such a powerful support character that is also able to dish out massive damage when needed. A maximised Lightning Bolt every short rest is nothing to sneeze at, while also having a through-the-roof AC, ability to use any weapon, Expertise, Inspiration, and a wide gamut of defensive, offensive, healing and boosting spells. That's a Bard even I would consider adding to my party, and normally I can't stand Bards.

[Farsha]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by Farsha:

Still don’t think cleric/bard is good combo.
Too many spells will compete for concentration.
Bard can do much more fun things then to concentrate on bless.
Bard spell list is aleady great,you don’t need to take 1st lvl divine spells.

Just get Shadowheart, she’s a cleric that can unlock stuff, leave bless for her.

Bard is much better with Paladin if you want to smite. Warlock for blasting with eldrich blast or sorcerer for metamagic.
Cleric gives you nothing but few spells you don’t need or want to cast.

Dipping cleric gives Bard medium and heavy armor, martial weapons and shield profs, as well as offensive, defensive and utility cantrips and spells. This alone may be worth a dip, as it instantly transforms you into a powerful frontline warrior capable of healing and protecting himself and others. It also lets you keep your spellcasting slot progression, so even though you'll be one level behind in spells known, you will still have the same amount of slots as a full bard.

Conversely, dipping Paladin will gimp your spell slot progressions (as half-casters only get half their level rounded down added to the multiclass spell slot table, so Paladin 1 gets nothing). And using your 3rd level spell slots to do an extra 4d8 damage to one target - provided you even hit - pales in comparison to doing 8d6 damage to all targets in a huge area with Fireball.

Dipping Warlock is even worse because it won't even get you armor profs, and Eldritch Blast without Agonising/Repelling Blast is just a regular cantrip. Meanwhile, again you're losing spell slot progression.

Dipping Sorcerer with Bard for metamagic is an interesting choice, assuming you go Bard first until level 6, when you get additional magical secrets for Fireball and Scorching Ray, and then go Sorcerer 3. That way you'll end up with Bard 9/Sorc 3, with access to 5th level spells and full spell slots for a 12th level spellcaster, two types of metamagic, and a mix of Bard and Sorc abilities. It's not too bad, but compare to what you're losing out compared to just going straight Sorc: a considerable bonus to damage from Draconic Bloodline, more sorcery points, many more various spells, and most importantly access to 6th level spells like Chain Lightning (which combined with Wet condition will wreck in this game). You're losing that, in exchange for what? Light armor, a rapier and a few inspiration dice? The exchange isn't worth it in my view. If damage is your priority, go full Sorc or Tempest/Sorc.

Why of all these options I think Tempest/Bard is the best - because it's such a powerful support character that is also able to dish out massive damage when needed. A maximised Lightning Bolt every short rest is nothing to sneeze at, while also having a through-the-roof AC, ability to use any weapon, Expertise, Inspiration, and a wide gamut of defensive, offensive, healing and boosting spells. That's a Bard even I would consider adding to my party, and normally I can't stand Bards.

Paladin 2, sword Bard10.
Heavy armor, shield, 2Attacks, 2figting styles, smite, flourish, 11th lvl caster at char lvl12 = 6th lvl spell slot, magical secrets, best contol spells in game.
That is a S class character, better than a paladin and bard single class.

[Farsha]

https://youtu.be/BiB66Hf9wsI

[Fast]

Originally posted by Farsha:

https://youtu.be/BiB66Hf9wsI

these guys are ALWAYS speaking in terms of purist D&D of which we do not have, we have a homebrew version much of which is translated differently in the game.

They also always speak with level 20 in mind. Its also with TCoE and MotMM in mind.
We have essentially base D&D without those. exceptions being some subclasses.

Its not super relevant.

[Indure]

Originally posted by Blackdragon:

Originally posted by Indure:

The second level of tempest cleric would net you low value until level 8. Also if you wanted to build around maximized lightning damage, straight tempest cleric is just better.

Tempest Cleric does not get the best lightning spells like Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning. Not even Chromatic Orb. The best they get for doing lightning damage is Glyph of Warding (5d8 as opposed to LB's 8d6). They do get more uses of channel divinity, but none of the Sorcerer's damage increases and multipliers (like Draconic bonus to elemental damage, Quicken Spell, more spell slots through sorcery point conversion etc.).

For maximised lightning damage, Tempest 2/Draconic Sorc X is the way to go.

I disagree.

First, tempest cleric 2 sorcerer 10 doesn't have access to chain lightning.

Second, Glyph of Warding is a level 5 spell vs Lightning Bolt, which is also level 5, but in order to make use out of a maximized Lightning Bolt you would need to be level 7.

Third, an upcasted Glyph of Warding since you have higher spell slots on straight cleric coequals Lightning Bolt. Glyph of Warding though has an explosive radius equal to fireball, while Lightning Bolt is a line attack so the likelihood of hitting multiple enemies is much higher.

Draconic bonuses are only +5 damage at most which seems inconsequential. Especially if you are hitting wet targets for 96 vs 101 damage.

Meta magic for sorcerer is incredibly valuable but I'm not sure three Lightning Bolts, only one of which is maximized is coequal to a hasted cleric casting 2 Glyph of Wardings, both of them maximized. It would be 104 average damage vs 96. And I'm not sure a +8 average damage bonus is worth being an entire spell level behind.

[Fast]

I will be taking a full sorc (probably respec wyll), a pally or barb (respec leazel), Ranger (respec astarian), and bard/cleric multiclass (Main character).
For pretty much this reason.

[Flusenjohnny]

2 Cleric 10 Bard is my build for Shadowheart so that I can more or less do whatever I want to play for the rest of the game ^^

[Fast]

Originally posted by Flusenjohnny:

2 Cleric 10 Bard is my build for Shadowheart so that I can more or less do whatever I want to play for the rest of the game ^^

im not sure i would want shadowheart as the face of the party or in my party at all, she seems like a neutral evil cultish brat, not my my deal.

[Revolve]

This is the build I'm thinking of doing for my character too since I saw it in
https://youtu.be/Q4iw6MPxSDg?t=1398 this video.

I love how many people in this thread have said stuff like "just take shadowheart" as if the point of a build like this isn't specifically so you aren't forced to take anyone specific.

I do really like the idea of taking Nature instead of Life like Indure recommended actually if healing is as weak as people are suggesting. The speak with animals thing alone is super valuable I think. What are your thoughts on that option? I've not played EA at all so I'm not sure what you'd lose going Nature vs Life.

[Fast]

Originally posted by Revolve:

This is the build I'm thinking of doing for my character too since I saw it in
https://youtu.be/Q4iw6MPxSDg?t=1398 this video.

I love how many people in this thread have said stuff like "just take shadowheart" as if the point of a build like this isn't specifically so you aren't forced to take anyone specific.

I do really like the idea of taking Nature instead of Life like Indure recommended actually if healing is as weak as people are suggesting. The speak with animals thing alone is super valuable I think. What are your thoughts on that option? I've not played EA at all so I'm not sure what you'd lose going Nature vs Life.

the thing is, there is like 20 speak with animals pots in the first act alone, not including the fact you can farm them off of vendors.they last until long rest also and make it less valuable, and i do agree healing is weaker in bg3, than D&D HOWEVER, things like temp hit points from AID, or any spell that provides temp hit points are EXTREMELY STRONG.

the most important things are the ability to get bless, guidance, create water, heavy armour healing word

[Revolve]

Originally posted by Fast:

Originally posted by Revolve:

This is the build I'm thinking of doing for my character too since I saw it in
https://youtu.be/Q4iw6MPxSDg?t=1398 this video.

I love how many people in this thread have said stuff like "just take shadowheart" as if the point of a build like this isn't specifically so you aren't forced to take anyone specific.

I do really like the idea of taking Nature instead of Life like Indure recommended actually if healing is as weak as people are suggesting. The speak with animals thing alone is super valuable I think. What are your thoughts on that option? I've not played EA at all so I'm not sure what you'd lose going Nature vs Life.

the thing is, there is like 20 speak with animals pots in the first act alone, not including the fact you can farm them off of vendors.they last until long rest also and make it less valuable, and i do agree healing is weaker in bg3, than D&D HOWEVER, things like temp hit points from AID, or any spell that provides temp hit points are EXTREMELY STRONG.

the most important things are the ability to get bless, guidance, create water, heavy armour healing word

Ah nice one I didn't realise a speak with animals pot was even a thing so yeah that does lessen the value a bit.

I think I'll stick with Life in that case for the extra healing and spells, thanks.

[Fast]

Originally posted by Revolve:

Originally posted by Fast:

the thing is, there is like 20 speak with animals pots in the first act alone, not including the fact you can farm them off of vendors.they last until long rest also and make it less valuable, and i do agree healing is weaker in bg3, than D&D HOWEVER, things like temp hit points from AID, or any spell that provides temp hit points are EXTREMELY STRONG.

the most important things are the ability to get bless, guidance, create water, heavy armour healing word

Ah nice one I didn't realise a speak with animals pot was even a thing so yeah that does lessen the value a bit.

I think I'll stick with Life in that case for the extra healing and spells, thanks.

yep
I mean there is TECHNICALLY bless ring on volo, but the thing is it takes a ring slot which i think is more vauable for other things, meaning i think life cleric 1 and 11 bard will very strong tbh
Means we can throw out a companion we dont want like shadowheart cause shes an annoying child.

We can respec karlach to fighter pally etc, and use wyll as are sorc/lock/wiz depending and then our choice is like astarian as whatever we want or gale but who is using gale im not even letting him join the party.

[TheJewishSloth]

Originally posted by Fast:

Ive never played this class in D&D even on table top.

And i was thinking it might be incredibly fun with how the game is set out.

But maybe someone can advise.

I will Start Level 1 Cleric and then multiclass into Lore Bard and go to level 12 as bard.

I was thinking Life cleric whilst u lose a single ASI, it allows you at level 6 bard to take 2 cleric spells (it should) instead of at level 10 with other bard subclasses, meaning you can take guardians and whatever else.
But importantly this lets you get guidance, wear heavy armour and shields, and disciple of life, bless etc you can then go into Bard, and benefit from a huge amount of proficiencies as well as all of bards incredible spells and class abilities.

This class will cover the dialogue,support,utility,,skill monkey and control options.

Meaning you can take whatever party members you like and not feel gimped.

If anyone knows some specific picks that are either necessary or should be considered greatly let me know.

The first thing to come to mind was the Nun Halloween costume

[Farsha]

Guys if you want to play optimally.
You want bless and haste always up in combat. They are the best spells in thr game.
So sure don’t take Shadowheart, but now you main character will do nothing but maintaining bless from lvl2-12. That’s not fun.
And the ring that gives bless gives it to 1 character for 2 turns on heal.
That is not that geat. And it won’t be up on combat start.
Also if you are healing in BG3 during combat you already messed up pretty badly, it’s not worth it, to waste action or bonus action on heals usually.

[Fast]

Originally posted by Farsha:

Guys if you want to play optimally.
You want bless and haste always up in combat. They are the best spells in thr game.
So sure don’t take Shadowheart, but now you main character will do nothing but maintaining bless from lvl2-12. That’s not fun.
And the ring that gives bless gives it to 1 character for 2 turns on heal.
That is not that geat. And it won’t be up on combat start.
Also if you are healing in BG3 during combat you already messed up pretty badly, it’s not worth it, to waste action or bonus action on heals usually.

Wrong. this is not how this class is played.