People who say you don't need 3 ASI/feats...

[Fast]

AC increases
DC increases
CR increases
Saves/AS increases

Difficulty

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by Fast:

Will mean that if you play some scuffed half multiclass build without ASIs or feats and equipment is not the god tier stuff people expect you or the game ends around level 10-11 which has been suggested by some. Then missing out on these quite important milestones is likely especially in higher difficulties to make things much harder for you.

Some of us are just going to play the game our own way and enjoy it. There's nothing stupid there.

'The game ends around L10-11'? That makes no sense!

Are you saying endgame will be SO difficult I should have listened to the build optimizers to have any chance of beating the game? That's nonsense.

Even if that were true, I'd respec. The existence of respec moots any argument that someone is playing the game incorrectly. You get that, right? There is no character build 'buyers remorse' 100 hours later in gameplay that can't be instantly undone!

So please: accept someone disagreeing with you. This isn't an argument either of us win.

- A

[Fast]

Originally posted by ahsanford:

Originally posted by Fast:

Will mean that if you play some scuffed half multiclass build without ASIs or feats and equipment is not the god tier stuff people expect you or the game ends around level 10-11 which has been suggested by some. Then missing out on these quite important milestones is likely especially in higher difficulties to make things much harder for you.

Some of us are just going to play the game our own way and enjoy it. There's nothing stupid there.

'The game ends around L10-11'? That makes no sense!

Are you saying endgame will be SO difficult I should have listened to the build optimizers to have any chance of beating the game? That's nonsense.

Even if that were true, I'd respec. The existence of respec moots any argument that someone is playing the game incorrectly. You get that, right? There is no character build 'buyers remorse' 100 hours later in gameplay that can't be instantly undone!

So please: accept someone disagreeing with you. This isn't an argument either of us win.

- A

The increase to the cap to 12, was specifically to allow casters to have a bit more viability later on.
Originally it was 10. The game was intended to finish at level 10.
They said this in an interview.

[Jarilye]

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:

Feats are nice but most builds dont need 3 feats. And as everyone is going to be at 18 main stat by level 4, you're not getting that much more by upping your mainstat by 1 additional point. Statistically speaking 19 times out of 20 rolls your extra point isnt going to matter, its just that one time every 20 times that you'll see a benefit, and that benefit will be exactly 1 turn not wasted.

That is nice, sure, but it is not "must have" if someone would rather do something else that would give them more fun.

That's not really how +1 bonuses work with d20. Not here to support the original guy's argument, but I think it's always important to point this out because it's how much of the tabletop community thinks. It's easiest to see not by calculating hit chance, but rather calculating miss chance.

Let's say you miss on a raw roll of 10 or lower normally (50% miss). Getting an additional +1 means you miss on a 9 or less. (45% miss). The actual increase to your accuracy is 10%. 45% is 10% lower than 50% using multiplicative rules, because 10% of 50 is 5. In terms of raw rolls, 9 is 90% of 10, so there is a 10% difference in how often you miss.

The difference becomes more pronounced the higher your base success rate. If you normally miss on a raw 5 or lower (25% miss chance), and gain +1 so you now miss on a 4 or lower (20% miss chance) you've gone from 5 potential "miss" rolls out of 20 to 4 "miss" rolls. Reducing failure rate from 25% to 20% is a difference of 20%, given that 4 represents 80% of 5.

The most extreme example would be going from missing on natural 2, to only missing on natural 1. This one is probably most intuitive. 1 is 50% of 2. If you could reduce your miss rate from natural 2 to natural 1, you have reduced your rate of failure by 50%.

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by Fast:

The increase to the cap to 12, was specifically to allow casters to have a bit more viability later on.
Originally it was 10. The game was intended to finish at level 10.
They said this in an interview.

L12 happening is 100% understood. I get that at L12 some level nasty L6 spells come into play. I get that some sweet things get unlocked for a single class L12 players. And I may still multiclass and give that up because I want to.

This thread isn't about L12. This thread is yours. You made it. You said we'd feel stupid if we didn't see the game your way and make leveling decisions as you would.

That is a terrible position to hold -- regardless of what the level cap is.

- A

[Hobocop]

Also, it's generally bad practice to be building for max level in a game where 75% of the content is basically unknown anyway.

[Dragon Master]

Originally posted by Jarilye:

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:

Feats are nice but most builds dont need 3 feats. And as everyone is going to be at 18 main stat by level 4, you're not getting that much more by upping your mainstat by 1 additional point. Statistically speaking 19 times out of 20 rolls your extra point isnt going to matter, its just that one time every 20 times that you'll see a benefit, and that benefit will be exactly 1 turn not wasted.

That is nice, sure, but it is not "must have" if someone would rather do something else that would give them more fun.

That's not really how +1 bonuses work with d20. Not here to support the original guy's argument, but I think it's always important to point this out because it's how much of the tabletop community thinks. It's easiest to see not by calculating hit chance, but rather calculating miss chance.

Let's say you miss on a raw roll of 10 or lower normally (50% miss). Getting an additional +1 means you miss on a 9 or less. (45% miss). The actual increase to your accuracy is 10%. 45% is 10% lower than 50% using multiplicative rules, because 10% of 50 is 5. In terms of raw rolls, 9 is 90% of 10, so there is a 10% difference in how often you miss.

The difference becomes more pronounced the higher your base success rate. If you normally miss on a raw 5 or lower (25% miss chance), and gain +1 so you now miss on a 4 or lower (20% miss chance) you've gone from 5 potential "miss" rolls out of 20 to 4 "miss" rolls. Reducing failure rate from 25% to 20% is a difference of 20%, given that 4 represents 80% of 5.

The most extreme example would be going from missing on natural 2, to only missing on natural 1. This one is probably most intuitive. 1 is 50% of 2. If you could reduce your miss rate from natural 2 to natural 1, you have reduced your rate of failure by 50%.

That makes no sense at all.

That's a 5% increase in accuracy, not a 10%. If the chances to hit are 50% and then the +1 makes the chances to hit 55%, that is a 5% increase, not a 10% increase.

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by Hobocop:

Also, it's generally bad practice to be building for max level in a game where 75% of the content is basically unknown anyway.

+1. And 90% of the gameplay experience (presumably) is in the earlier levels.

So I don't want to be invincible at L12. I want to thoroughly enjoying L1 - L12, and that means deviating from build uber combat characters. I'm strongly thinking about building a stat balanced skill monkey to be great at exploration and RP.

And if the game gets all Owlcat-like at L10+, I respec. No biggie.

- A

[WeenerTuck813]

Originally posted by .Master Jiren, The Strongest:

Feats are nice but most builds dont need 3 feats. And as everyone is going to be at 18 main stat by level 4, you're not getting that much more by upping your mainstat by 1 additional point. Statistically speaking 19 times out of 20 rolls your extra point isnt going to matter, its just that one time every 20 times that you'll see a benefit, and that benefit will be exactly 1 turn not wasted.

That is nice, sure, but it is not "must have" if someone would rather do something else that would give them more fun.

Yah this is like the worst take I’ve seen in a while.

The difference between a +4 and a +5 on your primary stat is massive, in several ways. It’s not just to-hit. It’s damage, it’s spell attacks, it’s spell save D/C, it’s number of spells learned, it’s primary skills, basically your whole character is based off your primary stat.

[Zuul]

Originally posted by Dragon Master:

That makes no sense at all.

That's a 5% increase in accuracy, not a 10%. If the chances to hit are 50% and then the +1 makes the chances to hit 55%, that is a 5% increase, not a 10% increase.

You didn’t actually bother reading the post you were responding to, did you?

I won’t repeat it for you, they did an excellent job, but even using your simplistic view there….you’re still wrong.

50% going to 55% is a 10% increase.

I hit for 10 damage. I swing 20 times. With 50% accuracy I do 100 damage. With 55% accuracy I do 110. I have increased my damage (and number of hits) by 10%.

[ACS36]

It really depends though. You probably don't need them on middle/low difficulties. You probably don't need them on all classes depending on what role your class is fulfilling.

I just don't really see the point in this topic based on how it's framed.