Skill Monkey Fighter build -- start with 1 level of Rogue?

[ahsanford]

You'd think after 180+ hours of EA I'd know the answer to this, but they keep unlocking stuff and I'm not sure what's best anymore.

I plan to play a melee / heavier armor character (class = presume fighter, negotiable). Also, I generally don't max-min my build. I like well-rounded chars that can spot traps and talk their way out of things. So I prefer a 'skilly fighter' of sorts.

So I would game my origin / class / race / etc. to try to get as many of these skills as possible:

Sleight of Hand
Perception
Persuasion
Deception
Intimidation

The first three above >> the rest. I value those a lot. So this tends to be a spreadout 14s and 12s kind of stat build.

Knowing all that: what class/sub-class/race/origin would you pick for that, and why? My only hard pass is Pally. No interest RP-wise.

- A

[ahsanford]

Seems like Ranger / Fighter / Rogue / Bard easily can get to where I need to on this.

I guess I'd prefer more HP and the later level upsides of Fighter/Ranger-dom than what higher level Rogues / Bards entail.

In truth I just want a well-rounded frontline melee character with a lot of RP / exploration tools rather than a topline STR fastball and the highest possible AC.

Your guidance is appreciated with this.

- A

[Ghost]

Wood Elf
Gets you Perception, Darkvision, Fey Ancestry (immune to sleep, advantage against charm), Elf Weapon Training (longsword, shortsword, longbow, shortbow), Fleet of Foot (extra movement), Mask of the Wild (better hiding)

Lore Bard (skills) and Fighter (for fighting) multiclass. Works better as Dex. fighter, but can get medium armour.

Urchin, or Charlatan background. For skills.

[ahsanford]

Ah right -- how does Multiclass reward/punish this sort of build?

Does a Fighter grabbing just 1 level of another class (Rogue immediately comes to mind) snatch up a bunch of skill proficiencies in the process?

- A

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by Ghost:

Urchin, Sage or Charlatan background. For skills.

Charlatan and Guild Artisan (gets me persuasion) often come up in the various builds I am thinking of. If only there was a background that gets a Fighter 2 of my 3 bolded ones in original post. Alas.

- A

[Ghost]

Originally posted by ahsanford:

Ah right -- how does Multiclass reward/punish this sort of build?

Does a Fighter grabbing just 1 level of another class (Rogue immediately comes to mind) snatch up a bunch of skill proficiencies in the process?

- A

What you get when you multiclass depends on what class you choose; also note that Larian may change the rules, so it may end up working differently.

If you took a level in Rogue, you'd get Light armor, one skill from the class's skill list, and thieves' tools.

If you instead start as Rogue and take a level in fighter, you'd get Light armor, medium armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons; but no skills.

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by Ghost:

If you took a level in Rogue, you'd get Light armor, one skill from the class's skill list, and thieves' tools.

If you instead start as Rogue and take a level in fighter, you'd get Light armor, medium armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons; but no skills.

Ah I see. So one level of Rogue gets me only 1 skill (tools are easy to find and leather I'd already be proficient in). And I could blow on a feat on skill proficiency and get it anyway.

So perhaps Multi-classing isn't the move to rack up a ton of skills. Thx.

Or is starting as a Rogue (which I recall nets a lot of starting skill proficiencies) and then going all Fighter after that a plausible move? Martial weapons is the big add in doing that, but I'd have no heavy armor and would need to waste a feat on that.

- A

[Ghost]

Wood Elf would net you the Perception and then starting as Rogue would get you the other 4. Brought up Bard because you mentioned 'talkie'.

Starting as Rogue would be better than Fighter for that, yes. Just depends on what features you want. If it's just the skills, than 1 level is fine.

Problem with Heavy armour is that you get Disadvantage for sneaking and you have to invest more points into Strength.

[ahsanford]

Originally posted by Ghost:

Wood Elf would net you the Perception and then starting as Rogue would get you the other 4. Brought up Bard because you mentioned 'talkie'.

Starting as Rogue would be better than Fighter for that, yes. Just depends on what features you want. If it's just the skills, than 1 level is fine.

Problem with Heavy armour is that you get Disadvantage for sneaking and you have to invest more points into Strength.

Yep. And I'll already be +2 from dex so perhaps a stouter medium is the way I'll go.

I may also deconstruct the classic 'Rogue' role -- I may be a non-sneaky rogue and spot / disarm / unlock, while someone else like Shad or Ast do the sneaking about.

Or I can be both with my main and just pack a second suit of armor to slink around in.

- A

[ahsanford]

The only 5e I've played is BG3, so are there any downsides to starting as Rogue and then all remaining levels are Fighter?

Does it kneecap me for saving throws, to hit, etc. in a rules-related 'I don't care if you are L1 Rogue, L11 Fighter, the rules say you are a Rogue' with respect to game considerations X, Y and Z?

- A

[ahsanford]

And is there a 5e character generator that will simulate starting as L1 Rogue and then leveling subsequently as Fighter?

I've seen a few 5e character builders but adding levels doesn't feel like a level up so much as a starting character.

- A

[Ghost]

Originally posted by ahsanford:

Yep. And I'll already be +2 from dex so perhaps a stouter medium is the way I'll go.

Apparently they're doing away with the racial stats - so we get a +2 and +1 to stick where we like, instead of X gets +2 Dex, Y gets +2 Con.

Originally posted by ahsanford:

The only 5e I've played is BG3, so are there any downsides to starting as Rogue and then all remaining levels are Fighter?

Does it kneecap me for saving throws, to hit, etc. in a rules-related 'I don't care if you are L1 Rogue, L11 Fighter, the rules say you are a Rogue' with respect to game considerations X, Y and Z?

- A

If you're only after the skills and not actually going to be a sneaky rogue, not really.
You'll miss out on the Rogue feats. but won't get kneecapped like that.

[Ghost]

Originally posted by ahsanford:

And is there a 5e character generator that will simulate starting as L1 Rogue and then leveling subsequently as Fighter?

I've seen a few 5e character builders but adding levels doesn't feel like a level up so much as a starting character.

- A

Haven't seen one specifically for BG3, and it would be subject to change, but you could try something like this: https://www.dungeonmastersvault.com/pages/dnd/5e/character-builder

It's limited to the SRD by default for legal reasons, but you can import the missing stuff.

Link to the Wizards of the Coast books: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CPXx4V2JYqRHKtuHPgcwttcKF1UjgNZI/view

On the DMV website, go MY CONTENT, under Import Option Source click browse and find the downloaded file, open. Then go to CHARACTERS, CHARACTER BUILDER

[Clive Hawkins]

Originally posted by ahsanford:

The only 5e I've played is BG3, so are there any downsides to starting as Rogue and then all remaining levels are Fighter?

Does it kneecap me for saving throws, to hit, etc. in a rules-related 'I don't care if you are L1 Rogue, L11 Fighter, the rules say you are a Rogue' with respect to game considerations X, Y and Z? - A

Yes, it kneecaps you hard.

In tabletop:
Your proficiency's are determined by the class you choose at level 1. If you start as a Fighter 1 you get proficiency in things like Heavy Armor and CON saves. You will not get any of these things if you start as a Rogue 1 and later multiclass with a Fighter. You'll have things like Medium Armor and Dex saves instead.

If you start as a Rogue 1 you will never be a Heavy Armor fighter unless you take the Heavy Armor Feat or Multi-class into a Light Domain Cleric which gets Heavy Armor from it's subclass rather than as a proficiency bonus.

This is the same reasoning why some people choose Fighter 1 / Wizard 11. You can have an AC of 21+ later on and still have 6th level spells and proficiency in CON saving throws (concentration checks). Without having to worry about casting an inferior Mage Armor and having a high DEX etc. Starting as a Wizard 1 you will not get those great Fighter prof's if you multiclass.

[Ghost]

Originally posted by Clive Hawkins:

Yes, it kneecaps you hard.

In tabletop:
Your proficiency's are determined by the class you choose at level 1. If you start as a Fighter 1 you get proficiency in things like Heavy Armor, Shields, and CON saves. You will not get any of these things if you start as a Rogue 1 and later multiclass with a Fighter. You'll have things like Light Armor and Dex saves instead.

If you start as a Rogue 1 you will never be a Heavy Armor fighter unless you take a Medium Armor Feat and a Heavy Armor Feat. Or start as a Githyanki / Shield Dwarf and take a Heavy Armor Feat. Or Multi-class into a Light Domain Cleric which gets Heavy Armor from it's subclass rather than as a proficiency bonus.

This is why it's not a bad idea to be a Fighter 1 / Wizard 11. You can have an AC of 21+ later on and still have 6th level spells and proficiency in CON saving throws (concentration checks). Without having to worry about casting an inferior Mage Armor / 16+ Dexterity / etc. Starting as a Wizard 1 you will not get any of those Fighter prof's if you multiclass.

If you multiclass into fighter you get medium armour and shields. You just miss the Heavy.

As for saves:
Strength saves aren't all that common and if you're just taking Rogue for the skills and not being a Rogue, you don't need to worry about that. Constitution is generally more useful, especially for casters, but not currently used all that much. Dexterity is by far the most used.

[Clive Hawkins]

The multi-class option I would recommend that most fits your playstyle would be:

Paladin X / Lore Bard X
Both classes scale with Charisma. Paladin starts you with Heavy Armor, Shields, and every single weapon prof. Lore Bard's are incredible skill monkeys. By level 3 they get like 5 skills including Intimidation and Sleight of Hand, 2 skills they can take Expertise in, and are excellent at talking their way out of things since those skills scale with their Charisma.

Furthermore, a Lore Bard has access to all of the social "spells" such as Speak With Animals, Detect Thoughts, Speak With the Dead, and Disguise Self (if the corpse hates you, disguise yourself and he won't know he hates you.) And since Lore Bard's are "full casters" and Paladin's are "half casters" you'll still get a ton of spell slots to Cast or Smite with no matter how many levels of each you take.

Paladin 6 / Bard 6 gives you more of an unstoppable Tank that is excellent at every skill on your list. I'd probably take Expertise in Perception and Sleight of Hand instead of raising your WIS and DEX. Meanwhile your high Charisma covers Persuasion / Deception / Intimidation. Also the Bards "Jack of all Trades" skill will give a +1 to +2 to every single skill you are not Proficient with (like Insight, Stealth, etc which may still be useful.)

To lean more on getting good social skills and spells early I'd go:
Paladin 1 - Heavy Armor
Bard 3 - Lore / Skills / Expertise
Paladin 2 - Smite
Bard 6 - Magical Secrets
Paladin 6 - Extra Attack and Aura of Protection

Also, Lore Bard's are the strongest characters in the game for landing crowd control spells since you can use your Reaction to make an enemies saving throw have a minus 1d6 using "Cutting Words." So spells like Charm, Fear, and Paralyze are even more effective which can altar social interactions.