Paladin: 2 points or GWF feat?

[24601]

I'm going to be playing as a Tiefling Paladin when the game comes out, which means I'm starting with 16 STR. What are your thoughts when I hit level 4, is Great Weapon Fighting too invaluable or would two points to reach 18 STR be more useful for consistent hitting?

[Yojo0o]

GWM is consistently better than +2 strength in my experience, assuming you're actually using heavy weapons. Particularly since paladins don't usually have a consistent bonus action to use.

From a meta perspective, it'll depend a lot on available weaponry. +2 strength does allow you to stay loose, after all. If this game has a Holy Avenger weapon that's specifically, say, a longsword, then GWM is going to feel pretty foolish.

[sevensided]

If you're going to use a 2handed weapon, bless + GWM is better than 18 strength (generally).

[Rail]

actually 18 str is better, way better actually - but if you would have 18 str it would been better to use GWF and then as a third ASI get more strength or pick another broken feat instead keep in mind this changes if you have some ways of advantage yourself like using vengeance, it's also fine for trash mobs to use GWF and feel broken, but take in mind stronger AC enemies will pop up rather soon and you might regret not picking str at that point - the bonus action can always somehwhat be used by having a secondary crossbow in your ranged set if you feel yourself needed to always use it

[Zaris]

In short just take GWF at lvl4 and push str to 18/20 at lvl8/12. Take Shadowheart / any cleric / dip lvl1 cleric with any hero to get bless and get the bless staff from tower ruins in the underdark to increase bless hit bonus from 5-20% to 10-40% to counter the -25% from GWF. Only problem will be if bless concentration gets broken.

The extra attack from crits / killing an enemy is also nice but in my last 3 playthrough i never observed it to be triggered.

[24601]

I suppose that also raises the question of whether the difference in damage output between a 1h and a 2h weapon matters as much with a Paladin, seeing as you can use Smite to burn down key enemies.

[24601]

Originally posted by Zaris:

In short just take GWF at lvl4 and push str to 18/20 at lvl8/12. Take Shadowheart / any cleric / dip lvl1 cleric with any hero to get bless and get the bless staff from tower ruins in the underdark to increase bless hit bonus from 5-20% to 10-40% to counter the -25% from GWF. Only problem will be if bless concentration gets broken.

The extra attack from crits / killing an enemy is also nice but in my last 3 playthrough i never observed it to be triggered.

Along with the amazing 2h halberd that far surpasses anything else I ever found in EA!

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by 24601:

I suppose that also raises the question of whether the difference in damage output between a 1h and a 2h weapon matters as much with a Paladin, seeing as you can use Smite to burn down key enemies.

The difference between one-handed and two-handed weapons in general is pretty lacking unless you take the feats that support the two-handed options.

[Choosing WHeel]

GWM (which is what I think you mean) is good if you can counteract the -5 attack modifier, which Paladins can do by casting Bless and (if devotion) using your oath ability that turns your weapon into a +1 magic weapon. Thunderous Smite can also knock enemies prone, which gives you advantage.

More STR will let you land more hits though (2 str is 5 percent more chance to hit), and the game is scaled with the assumption that you'll have an average 65% chance to hit against an appropriately challenging enemy at every level. This means that the -5 is actually a -6 compared the attack modifier the game expects you to have at that point.

you're sacrificing the ability to reliably land your attacks in return for much greater damage potential.

Keep in mind, while your average damage per a round will probably be higher with GWM, if you whiff your first few attacks, your enemies will be around longer and therefore will do more damage and potentially stun you or something like that

[sevensided]

Originally posted by Yojo0o:

Originally posted by 24601:

I suppose that also raises the question of whether the difference in damage output between a 1h and a 2h weapon matters as much with a Paladin, seeing as you can use Smite to burn down key enemies.

The difference between one-handed and two-handed weapons in general is pretty lacking unless you take the feats that support the two-handed options.

Concur- you're better off taking dueling fighting style and a shield, than a two hander without GWM (barring ridiculous variation of magic weapons).

[Daniel_USA]

It honestly depends on what you able to get in-game.

For example:

GWM biggest bonus comes with a -5 to hit which at early levels with non-magic weapons is probably not worth using. At level 4 the only bonus you are getting is the bonus action weapon attack which is great but probably not worth the ASI loss.

Now lets say you are getting good drops, cheese a +1 2 hander or even get a weapon with multiple damage dice attached to it then GWM begins to shine because you will find yourself hitting more often with the bonus attack and doing more damage.
Also let's say you have a group that can consistently buff you such as a bard, cleric, or have the ability to turn most attacks into advantage; at that point GWM should be able to hit with the -5 more consistently.

In most games I've played GWM doesn't kick in unless you are a variant human and get it for free or you wait till level 8.

There is math online that tells you what AC a monster should be to make GWM worth at what Ability Score you are currently at but basically unless you constantly have advantage the odds of hitting an AC 12 creature with GWM was like 54% or something low.

[BigAlzBub]

You can buy 3 potions of Hill Giant Strength from Auntie Ethel, they are relatively cheap, give a Strength of 21 until you long rest, and can be brought ever time you long rest. So maybe you don't need to Compromise?

[Hobocop]

Oath of Devotion and Vengeance have Channel Divinity features to offset the accuracy penalty, which makes using the Power Attack feature more often more attractive.

[Yojo0o]

Originally posted by BigAlzBub:

You can buy 3 potions of Hill Giant Strength from Auntie Ethel, they are relatively cheap, give a Strength of 21 until you long rest, and can be brought ever time you long rest. So maybe you don't need to Compromise?

That's all well and good for early access, but unless 1.0 gives us a continual supply of such potions, I doubt we're going to get through the game entirely thanks to steroid use. Though I imagine it would be a funny challenge run once people are comfortable with the game.

[E man]

An ASI in your main skill up to another even number is always (mathematically) the best choice. It’s roughly a 5% overall improvement to your bread & butter.
HOWEVER… like all rules there are exceptions. Party composition can create a dynamic that choosing another FEAT will synchronize more advantageously with the overall group dynamic.
For example, SENTINEL can be very good in a party with 2 frontline tanks.
Summary: ASI is individually better. FEAT can be universally better.

NOTE: A Paladin should really be using Sword & Board anyways. And not Greater Weapon Fighting. Max your AC. Let your Smites do your damage.

[Rachel Dawn Amber]

I always goes for GWF, I have support and I drank elixir